Nations Gather To Defend Against Russian Aggression

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by El Kabosh, May 18, 2016.

  1. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not to mention the world's biggest national debt, and the world's stupidest military. Apart from the UK's MoD.
     
  2. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    it IS one country!:roflol:
    Europe has 24 working languages and distinct cultures that are thousands of years old. To suggest that e.g. texans are as different from new englanders, as brits are from bulgarians.. That's just purely retarded. The US just has variations of the same anglo saxons culture. Europe has actual culture differences.
    it is indeed quite impressive how the US manages to foster strong regional identities despite being pretty much culturally homogenous. The civil war was perfect manifestation of the epic flaws of the original US system.
    No, a particular country, germany, was. It is stupid to speak of "europe" because europe was at the same time victorious, defeated, and neutral. It's as stupid as saying you went to war with asia rather than Japan. In reality parts of asia helped you against japan.
    If you are an anarchist, you shouldn't be neutral towards authoritarian regimes.
    So it's not at all relevant that the US is a liberal democracy? That the US actually is more free than e.g. russia? An anarchist is supposed to care about such things.
     
  3. vis

    vis Banned

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    Ararmer, the fact that Yanukovich stepped back from the agreement with EU is well understandable. The thing is that the economics of Ukraine would have been trashed if that happened because Ukranian goods are not competitive with the European ones. That would simply ment that all industrial factories, plants were closed. And that is already happeining now. Not only that, there was a tight connection of Ukraine with Russia in terms of orders that were placed in the factories of Ukraine etc. Russia was a big trader partner of Ukraine. So if you look now on the economic situation in Ukraine it became much worse than it was with Yanukovich. The prices for food, flat utilities went very fast up. The other side of the coin is that in fact EU does not need problematic Ukraine as it has already a lot of problems with Greece, Portuagal and recently joined countries. So all this show about association with the EU is just a soap bubble.
     
  4. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    What's to like about US aggression?
     
  5. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    What a host nation does in its own country is up to them. Similarly with the overthrow of democracy in Iran by the CIA; Iran quite legitimately wanted to nationalize their oil industry. America didn't like the idea of that so a US-friendly brutal dictator was installed instead. Nationalisation isn't theft if it's your own industry that you're nationalising in your own country.
     
  6. Pronin24

    Pronin24 New Member

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    This is when and how all this started: http://www.iranchamber.com/history/coup53/coup53p1.php
    Now, they try it on Russia, but it does not work well. Russian government is too smart and Russians are proud people.
     
  7. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    No, it's not your own industry when others have paid for it, and that's the point. nationalisation is theft.
     
  8. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    Good article. I'm amazed at how ignorant so many Americans are about the illegal activities of their successive governments, and how they seem incapable of joining the dots between the coup in 1953 and today's antipathy toward America from Iran, when it was all America (and Britain) creating the problems in the first place!
    Does the West never learn that eventually aggression has unpleasant consequences?
     
  9. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    The AIOC was a concession to extract Iranian oil.
     
  10. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    You have no deterrence for me to undermine. The threat to your peace is your weakness. Not mine. I do not share it.
    There is no "we" in this equation that involves you.

    Nuclear deterrence.
    I am prepared to use nukes.
    Just not over your life, only mine.

    I won't sacrifice the lives of everyone I now and love to save you. I won't sacrifice the entire human race to save you. But I will do just that, for any one of my family.
     
  11. ararmer1919

    ararmer1919 Banned

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    Please don't generalize his opinions with all Americans.
     
  12. ararmer1919

    ararmer1919 Banned

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    I wasn't under the impression that the plan was to cut all ties and close off all Russian trade and partnerships. They just wanted to start working with the away as well.

    I also don't think we can use the post Maiden Ukriane as a good model to indicate how well thier economy and trade with the away would have gone. Your ignoring the fact that a civil war is going on and huge portions of Ukraines assets, time and manpower are being focused onto that. Add in Russian attacks and annexation and it's no surprise Ukriane is doing shifty right now. So i don't think we can rightfully say that they would be doing this bad today had Yanuk just gone through with the EU deal and no civil war ever occurred.
    This also doesn't address the above points I made in regards to his comment.
     
  13. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    And?
    Dont make it personal you prick, it has nothing to do with either of us personally. I could write a treatise of how little i care about you personally, but I wont, because that is irrelevant and needlessly provocative. But since you brought it up, I would not sacrifice -anything- of value to save you.
    No, of course not. I know he's a special snowflake. Most americans are sane.
     
  14. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.

    Now we both understand our mutual alliance perfectly.

    There is none of any value possible between us.
    You will do nothing at all to help me so no alliance of any sort is wanted with you.

    Quite the opposite. An alliance with you should be avoided since it has no reciprocity.
     
  15. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    Except that we -us two- don't have an alliance. Such an alliance would indeed be pointless. But our countries do have an alliance of sorts. As i've said, don't make this personal. This has exactly nothing to do with us personally. You are not the one holding the nukes. The Uk is. You are not the signoatory to the EU treaty. The UK is. What you think of anything is 100% irrelevant.
     
  16. ararmer1919

    ararmer1919 Banned

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    Baff is just a coward. The US military will gladly come to our allies defense if need be and I know I would have no regrets if I died fighting to defend you and yours.
     
  17. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Referendum soon.
    I get my say.

    The UK is the one holding the Nukes. Not the EU and not NATO.
    In the US the same. Not NATO, but POTUS and his briefcase.

    None of our treaties cover the use of nukes. They are sovereign decisions. They have an independent chain of command.

    And I'm telling you straight as someone who lives here in the UK and can feel the public mood..., there will be no mass nuke out over Sweden. No matter how much I like hanging out with you guys online.
    It's just never going to happen. You can sue us in the EU court if you like.

    Let's try intelligence sharing instead. Radar profiles, sonar profiles. We can help each other here.
    Also training, purchasing. Loads of room for co-operation without nukage or indeed sacrifice.
     
  18. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is an Anglo world, there is a Spanish world and there is a Russian world. All of Ukraine was part of the Russian world, until Galatia and a few other places went under the Pope during the Polish/Lithuanian occupation of the Russian lands. The Eastern part refused to, and asked the Tsar if they could go under his wing again.

    This is why Ukraine is two separate cultures, with the one in the West doing what it habitually does, and that is to try impose their standards on the Orthodox world...while grabbing their lands.

    Russia though is unconquerable, and that is why they are hated. They protected the Orthodox people from both the West and the Turks, and it is this affinity between Russia and the Orthodox people that the West keeps trying to destroy with lies and propaganda.
     
  19. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    What is even your point? The UK has signed treaties obliging it to help Sweden if we are attack. End of story. You might not like that but tough (*)(*)(*)(*) for you. You can vote for brexit and the Uk won't have that obligation anymore, but until then they do.
     
  20. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Swedes aren't one of your allies.
    They are neutral and un allied.

    The alliance he refers to is part of the EU treaty.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think you mistake the form in which that obligation will be fulfilled. You expect MAD and I expect arms sales. We will sell you guns and stuff. Drop some targeted sanctions.
    Maybe if you train up some of our winter soldiers.. they will want to deploy with you, if they are there at the time.

    You put dick all in, you get dick all out.
    Sue us though the EU if you are still alive after your war.

    You simply do not have the capability to honour your end. So don't expect us to ours.


    I appreciate your soldiers took part in Bosnia. I believe they'd want to show up in the UK. But they wouldn't be able to. And ours wouldn't be able to resupply in Sweden. You can't contribute to my defence even if you wanted to. And vice versa.
    Our troops will meet in defence of common allies once more I hope.
     
  21. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First of all Ukraine was in a desperate state before the coup. It needed 15 billion dollars to pay off its debt and no nation would loan them the money. As a last resort Yanukovich went to Putin, and he gave him 3 billion immediately from Russia's pension fund, and said he would get the rest later. This is the 3 billion Ukraine refuses to pay back.

    Yanukovich at the time had every intention of joining the EU, but believed the cost to Ukraine would be only a few billion in lost trade with Russia. It turned out to be in the hundreds of billions because there was no way Putin could allow EU goods to come into Russia under Ukraine's favorable trade agreements.

    Yanukovich asked the EU if they could help cover the extra costs, and they refused. Vladimir Putin was willing to discuss the situation with the EU so they could come to an agreement, and again they refused.

    Yanukovich then told the people in Ukraine that they will have to wait a while before joining the EU, and that's when the protests started. Yanukovich then came to an agreement with the protesters and together with Ashton and others a paper was signed so that legally he was the President until December. .

    When he went back to his office, the Right Sector threatened his life so he was forced to leave. Nuland completely ignored the signed document and immediately recognized the junta.

    Anyway there were never any Russian tanks in Ukraine. Any tanks the Donbas freedom fighters had, were the ones that were captured when the soldiers surrendered. When Gen. Breedlove was screaming about ten thousand Russian tanks invading Ukraine, the German Intelligence agents couldn't see them and according to the German magazine Spiegel began to question his sanity.



     
  22. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    You have a funny way of interpreting the treaty... we of course dont know how the uk would respond if sweden was attacked. By treaty they are supposed to help "by all means in their power". This obviously includes nukes... stupid treaty you might say, but the uk started ww2 because of a treaty with poland..

    Short point is.. thr UK signed a treaty. What is so hard to understand? Arent you a native speaker?
     
  23. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    You are taking the (*)(*)(*)(*) mate.
    The EU is a trade agreement. Not a mutual defence pact.

    We have NATO for that.

    The UK did start WW2 for a treaty with Poland.
    Hard lesson learnt. We won't do it again.

    Treaty=words on paper.
    Sue us if you think we are interpreting them wrong.

    Don't get me wrong I can see how you wish to interpret them, but it is a mistake to expect us to do so the same way.
    Take it to EU court, when we don't nuke Russia for you. Our armies will be camped there to keep it open for you.

    There is no appetite here to go to war for the EU. Half of us feel no allegiance to it. Half of us hate it.
    We are more likely to sacrifice our lives to destroy it than we are to save it.
     
  24. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you Jeanette for bringing some powerful insightfulness and sanity into the Ukraine issue, not least because it silences the usual suspects - at least for a little while anyway, then sure as night follows day they kick off with their anti-Putin rants again.
     
  25. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A single entity can't possibly work in the mutual interests of 28 (and counting?) diverse countries. It simply isn't feasible. Problem is that it hasn't been tested yet, and if/when it does have to meet the test it'll be too late for it to be fit for purpose. Yet something else the stupid architects of the misbegotten idea didn't think of. :roll: :wall:
     

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