Two parallel universes, one truth. What this election is really about.

You are arguing that things are acceptable and the rate of improvement is reasonable. If that is your stance, Hillary is your choice.

 

I guess you live in a bubble and don't talk to people in your neighborhood or anything.
The hurt is real in America.

 

The middleclass saw solid real and strong gains under The Gipper

Might being doing fine for the government and the connected class, but there is real pain in the middle class.


Nobody is entitled to any office. When the government screws up that badly, heads simply have to roll. It's time for change. If the next set of folks can't improve on that, then you dump them too. When the middle-class takes a real hit like that. You are fired.

 

Unfortunately "the economy is doing fine" is a meaningless theoretical concept if the overwhelming majority of the population don't participate in the expansion. Which is reflected in the decreasing/stagnant median income. People don't care about the GDP of their country, people care about their family's GDP and it's been shrinking, not growing for a very long time now. Add to that skyrocketing healthcare costs, outsourcing and the influx of illegal immigrants depressing the wages and the picture becomes pretty gloomy for the average American family, the growth of stock market, benefitting mostly the 1 percenters notwithstanding.

 

Oh, please.

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When their decendants are surrounded with Muslims that want to exterminate them they'll figure it out.

 

The economy has done well but yes, not devoid of imperfections. You mention that wall street has done well, what about small business? car industry? housing? it's not just wall street. Now, yes, underemployment is still a tad low, wages haven't increased that much and working class hasn't quite participated in the expansion as the upper class has but OVERALL, economy in fine shape.

Mostly Bush, by far. Once we invaded and created such destruction instability, Obama was left with a no win situation. The Iraqi people didn't want the US troops in Iraq anymore and the american public wanted the troops out. Had Obama left troops in Iraq it would've been problematic on many fronts - American troops getting killed, American public in outrage and an Iraqi administration showing hostility towards US troops, man they didn't even want Americans there! So Obama had no win situation here. The problem was invading this Country, it created a mess - 1. sectarian violence once Sunnis were defeated and Shia muslims were in charge, the Iraqi PM marginalized sunnis. 2. Concentration camps for sunnis, who becomes radicalized, the ISIS leader was birthed here! 3. Destruction of infrastructure and morale, leading to desperation and rise of radicalism. Bush was at fault, let's stop the Obama stuff.

everybody wants to preserve cultures and traditions, not only the people immigrating. There are many americans that don't want their culture to be diluted or their cities infiltrated by immigrants. Sometimes you see these beautiful cities that completely change once immigrants invade, just look at Marseilles, France. People tell me it used to be such a beautiful place and now a mess after after the muslim immigration, muslims are now like 40% of the population there.

this is the point i make, the working class have been forgotten as the rich and the most powerful corporations have influenced politicians. Trade is good for corporations not the working class; Low tax on investments is great for the rich, not so much for the lower class; tax loopholes are great for corporations.

 

I'm doing fine, my friends are doing fine and we all have different jobs - banking, engineering, small business... etc... and i talk to regular people like the plumber that comes to work at my house and other regular folks.

One again, political rhetoric... 'all horrible, all terrible' Let's try and be independent thinkers and not just believe everything trump says... or cruz etc... Obviously i also say the same thing about Hilary and Sanders. Sanders was full of it when he depicted all rich as bad and all of wall street as corrupt, nothing can be further from the truth but this is what sanders says to get a following...

Man, all politicians lie but they do it in subtle ways, by telling part of the story, omitting important facts that don't suit their argument and at times just flat out lying their arse off.

 

Yes, the expansions that the upper class can participate in have done very well. None of that benefit is felt by the working class, the poor, etc. Underemployment is a larger problem than you paint it to be. Most jobs available are part time at best. As for small businesses, well many are either losing B&M properties and work out of their home, or just crumbling outright. That's why in many people's perspective the economy is failing.

That's ISIS in Iraq, yes Bush did that. However, Obama is the cause of the Syrian/Libyan aspects of ISIS due to the arming and funding of rebel groups who became part of ISIS. As well, Obama practiced in the same actions that Bush did, toppling these dictators which causes chaos.

There's probably some truth to what they describe. We also have data when the same thing happens here with other minorities. At some percentage, crime rates go up.

And that's why the working class would disagree that the economy is fine or good.

 

I have looked at the facts and they are not pretty. I dont like either party. There is only one party the establishment party. I dont like Hillary or trump either. Both suck but Hillary is the worst person ever to run for president. She will do as much for women as Obama has done for blacks. At least Trump will shake things up. At worst he will get nothing done and that would be better than what Hillary would do.

I suggest you look at the facts

 

All of the above...

 

1) I must've dreamt up the incidences in California, Orlando, the Boston Marathon and Towns Square. The US still has a target on its back, and Washington refuses to speak strongly against our enemies. Maybe at best, Obama can squeal out his 'We'll bring them to justice' line, as though that's actually intimidating.

The likes of ISIS want to intimidate us, and Washington says...okay.

2) The economy is horrible, for the average working layman. For the DOW and the 500, I suppose it is going pretty well(as you pointed out.) But that doesn't make a long-term economy.

3) Right and what's the now confirmed scientific media bias? Liberalism. So it's up to Liberals to get their ass in line, if their propaganda is so destructive. Awaiting a "right-wing conspiracy" about Liberal agitation tactics in 3, 2, 1.

4) Crime isn't up, insensibilities are. That's what happens when a POTUS declares winners and losers on public television. He's actually quite an awful speaker, and not too different from Trump. He just has a different fan base.

5) As a former Liberal, yes, I did want Obama to get out of Iraq. I also wanted him to do so "responsibly", so when we hear that he left less forces than the military advised him to, no that's not smart. So already, the idea that Obama handled the situation correctly isn't so.(And refuted by a senior official in his administration, I forgot his name.) Then he happened to participate in the Arab Spring, and armed fighters who were parts of various organizations across the world, being ignorant to all of this. A withdrawal of troops while increasing arms to fighters. BRILLIANT, strategist Obama! His name will go down in Napoleon history(sarcasm)

But even after all this, he STILL had the opportunity to fix it. But he called ISIS a "JV" team and we know what happened. He massively dropped the ball in his foreign policy. Even a CNN Columnist admitted it.

 

ISIS in Iraq came from Syria. That is, like it or not a result of Obama's failure to even try for a residual force agreement. By the way if you don't think the majority of Americans wanted everyone to come home after WWII you're kidding yourself, but we had actual leaders back then who understood reality.

 

I'll help you with why the economy is horrible:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

See all those red number, and how they are going up. Yeah those ones. That's why the US has a problem.

 

The group that was formed by al-Zarqawi that joined Al-Qaeda in Iraq originated in Jordan, this group later became the Iraq part of ISIS. The Syria and Libya portions didn't form until Obama's term. I'm not denying Obama's role in the creation of ISIS as I've mentioned that in his efforts in Libya and Syria he funded and armed elements of the group. And yes, he left Iraq under lack luster leadership which led to Iraqi troops surrendering their weapons, which were also from the US. However, Bush created the power vacuum in Iraq which terror groups attempted to fill, hence the sectarian violence that paralleled the US operations.

 

Oh where to start. The US Navy has less than 300 ships. Our nuclear arsenal is outdated and in sore need of modernization. The Air Force and Navy have to raid museums and boneyards to keep enough planes in the air to fulfill their missions. The Army is as small as it has been since WW2. Same for the Marines. And the defense budget is an absolute mess, we do not get what we pay for. We have political hacks making decisions over how it is spent and not the military.

The economy SUCKS. You know better. We are nearly at zero growth for the first quarter and have grown at 2 percent or less. The TRUE unemployment rate, before they cheated with the numbers, is closer to 10 percent than 5. Incomes are down. Job participation rate is putrid. Please.

The crime rate in certain areas might be down. But some of our inner cities are a war zone. If you think we are so safe, walk the streets of our nations' capital at night and see what happens to you.

I actually agree with you for the most part about the media and groups like BLM driving the racial tension. But you conveniently omitted the complicity of the Obama Admionistration, their rhetoric not helping the situation at all.

IMO it was a mistake to invade Iraq, never should have done it. Those people are determined to live in the Middle Ages and we should grant them their wish, as long as they do not try to bring all that here. And yes, Obama inherited all of that. But he screwed up the withdrawal and created a vacuum, which the bad guys have filled. To be honest we all would have been better off if Saddam was still running the show, he would have kept Iran in check and there would be no ISIS today.

No we are not safe. And we will be much less safe if the Democrats continue their illegal voter registration drive that they call immigration. You can't just let people in here without knowing something about them, that is just common sense. And this PC BS concerning Muslims and illegal Hispanics has to stop. It isn't Southern Baptists going around causing all the problems, forming gangs and committing crimes in our cities, killing policemen and committing atrocities.

In general, the rosy picture you paint is just that, because reality is not a canvas. And the Democrats must be stopped this election cycle before they complete that so called hope and change thingie, because hope is in short supply and the change is unacceptable. Yes this election is about nationalism, and its about time.

 

Yet that power vacuum existed because there was no US voice present in the form of a residual force to cover for it while the Iraqi government sorted out the nearly insane political situation in which it came to be.

 

Here's the truth.

1. The military is a disaster based on several points. Obama has been purging our general officers for years, loss of experience of those who disagreed with him. Obama has been micromanaging the military. When military leaders asked for 10,000 troops to remain in Iraq, Obama wanted 5000 but he wouldn't even negotiate with Iraq on status of forces agreement resulting in ISIS. From a results view, the middle-east has millions of refugees leaving for western countries, and ISIS has been committing genocide without fear of intervention. COMPLETE FAILURE.

2. The economy DOES suck. Obama has averaged far below 3-percent GDP his entire presidency, lower than all others since the 1950s. The latest 2 qtr GDP was announced FRIDAY at 1.2 percent growth. The 1st qtr GDP is 0.8-percent growth. That is anemic, just slightly above stagnant. The 15 million so-called new jobs have been taken by the 25 million foreign born workers in the country according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. That also keeps wages low like they've been for years. There's 95 million people that have left the workforce no longer seeking work (LFPR). COMPLETE FAILURE.

3. The OFFICIAL FBI crime stats haven't been calculated yet to show the latest but even FBI Dir. Comey admits there is a "Ferguson Effect" causing higher crime rates. The people sure do see it differently when they read/hear about mass murders nearly every week. Worse yet, another cop was shot again today! That shows we're on our way to a complete breakdown in society. The only thing standing between citizens and anarchy are cops. FAILURE!

4. Racial tensions could have been improved by Obama but he decided to divide the country further, making him a complete failure in this regard.

5. See #1 above. Same answer.

HERE IS THE ACE IN THE HOLE THAT DEFEATS DEMOCRATS IN THE ELECTION. THE PEOPLE NOW KNOW HILLARY SHOULD BE IN PRISON. GAME OVER! CHECKMATE! LANDSLIDE!

Steve

 

While it appears you think there is nothing wrong with how the country is approaching issues being faced, and that Republicans are painting too bleak a picture about where we're at, recent polling indicates that 7 out of 10 Americans disagree with you. I believe this election is going to hinge on three simple factors:

(1) Establishment or non. The successful candidacies of both Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders indicate a pronounced shift away from support of traditional, establishment, party politics in favor of ouside. This is basically point 3 on your list - political correctness and dishonest/incompetent politicians. I think the resentment that is driving this is palpable. Included with this are the feeling that the process is rigged/dishonest, that the press is unfair in its dealings, that the playing field is not level, etc.

(2) The economy. A bit of an expansion on point 2 of your list, this comes down to economic growth, job creation/retention, trade agreements, tax policies, etc. In addition, embedded in this is the referendum on such things as the ACA, military spending, growth of the federal deficit, etc.

(3) National security. A broad topic that incorporates how safe we feel, what we think about our approach/effectiveness against the threats posed by ISIS, what we do about our broken immigration system, how we handle the influx of refugees from troubled areas like Syria, the various treaties under which we operate (like NATO), how we best engage with various regions of the world. Embedded in this are our views about our relationships with both friends and foes (Israel, Iran, North Korea, China, Russia, the E.U.), what we do in support of our military, what our proper global role is, etc.

Additional minor matters will weigh in, but I believe these will end up providing the basis on which most Americans will cast their vote.

 

No. You can't reduce current reality to a mere two parallel universes. As a Bernie supporter, I don't inhabit the same consensual reality as Debbie Wasserman Schultz. (I suspect Donald Trump inhabits his own universe.)

I would strongly urge you to re-think point number #2. Without succumbing to rightist paranoia, any rational person must acknowledge the abiding failures of the neo-liberal economic model. This model, which has been the basis of both Republican and Democratic economic policy, has left working families further and further behind over the decades.

It is not 'nitpicking a statistic here and there' to point out that economic gains of the past 35 years have accrued to top tiers of the economic ladder, while working families have fallen further and further behind. Not since the gilded age has gap between the haves and the have-nots loomed so large. The resultant political and social instability can't be written off.

 

you are using a straw man in order to more easily argue against my points, Where did i say there is nothing wrong? On economy, I did point out that GDP growth has been lackluster, underemployment a tad low and not all americans have participated in the expansion. What is biased and not backed out by facts is to claim the economy is horrible mess, as Trump and others argue. Most economists disagree with this unless they are politically inclined. Any economy with an unemployment rate of 5%, stock market at record levels, housing at healthy levels, consumer industry performing solid, good job gains for 5 years + is a solid economy, period. It is intellectually dishonest and political to just look at a few areas and proclaim 'what a mess'... On the military, i did mention that there have been budget pressures but to claim the military is a disaster is a joke, then where is all the spending going? The US spends more than China, Russia combined! and the military is a mess? We do have problems but Trump exaggerates everything for obvious reasons..

agreed

agreed but looking at all the facts, the economy is largely doing well but there are some areas which could be doing better. Just looking at certain facts (bad ones) and ignoring the other facts (good ones) is just bias and i don't find it worthwhile arguing with people who argue in this manner.

agreed but we have to consider that the republican strategy is to depict a very dark picture of the world and the US because this is how they can persuade Americans to vote for them. Broadly speaking, America is safe and we have strong ties to allies. Terrorism is a threat but they haven't infiltrated the U.S. like they have Europe. Trump's strategy is to make Americans feel unsafe by talking about illegal immigration (he doesn't mention that Obama has been a deporter in chief does he), claim the military is weak, claim crime is on the rise, claim Iran is going to get nuclear weapons, claim ISIS is stronger than ever etc... It's mostly lies or half truths. Americans, unfortunately, fall for it... I agree with Trump is some areas but he isn't being totally honest because he wants to win.

 

Outside of this year, there hasn't been a significant post-convention bump since 2000.

Conservative tree house has a theory that Trump did not get a bump-but that rather the

current polling is closer to how its been all along-without the media being able to cover for the multiple polls showing Trump ahead.


There just might be some truth to it.