It's time to take the traitors at their word

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Zorroaster, Aug 11, 2016.

  1. Zorroaster

    Zorroaster Well-Known Member

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    There is a certain subset of 2nd Amendment advocates who are straight-up traitors against the United States. Specifically, they believe that one of the purposes of the 2nd Amendment is to overthrow the government of the United States. They go beyond the intent of the amendment for personal defense, and for a militia defense of the nation. Their arms are seen as a defense against you, their fellow citizens, when you vote in governments they describe as a tyranny.

    All power flows from the barrel of a gun, as Mao put it, and these are our own homegrown Maoists of the 2nd amendment.

    Check out ten zillion other threads on this forum. They are all saying that Hillary should be impeached, "not allowed" (wink, wink), that she lied and therefore cannot serve. OMG, a politician lied.

    Once you translate all the innuendos and veiled threats into plain English, their meaning is crystal clear. They believe in bullets not ballots, and they're watching you with bad intent. Trump knows these people like the back of his hand, and he knows exactly how to pump them up. He knows how to say it without coming out and saying it in plain English - that's his master skill as a salesman.

    So how about you?

    Do you have the honesty and courage to plainly speak what you believe? Will you come out and actually say you reserve the right to take up arms against your fellow citizens because of their political beliefs? My prediction is that you won't, because you are political and intellectual cowards. You want to intimidate people with veiled threats, but like all bullies you will back down when confronted.

    So, just remember one thing. If you think you have a 2nd amendment solution to the 'bad guys', the bad guys are thinking the same thing about you. This is the fatal flaw in the the thinking of the "2nd amendment people". If you start the war, you may not be the one who finsihes it.

    (You can fill in whoever you like for the 'bad guys.')
     
  2. Guyzilla

    Guyzilla Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Church, preach it brother. Don't forget, this is a republic, not a democracy, you have no constitutional right to vote, saith the right winger.
     
  3. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    The logic of your argument is that we should never have fought the Revolutionary War.

    So assuming a tyranny of some sort, armed opposition to it would be wrong?
     
  4. Zorroaster

    Zorroaster Well-Known Member

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    Okay, buddy.

    I am an American. I am loyal to the United States, not the Crown. I don't give a good g-dam about treason against the crown, but I do care deeply about the treason against the United States. The country in whose armed forces I served.

    For the record, if Washington, Jefferson, Adams, et al had lost, they would have been hung. And deservedly so. They did commit treason.

    The US went down the wrong road after the civil war, when the traitor states where allowed full rights. The fact that we did not hang Jeff Davis, Robert E. Lee, and all the Generals and high office holders of the CSA allowed the treason to grow and fester over the subsequent century and a half.

    The treason has spread and infected half the nation. We can no longer hang together as a nation, in my opinion.

    I don't see any good way out of this, at this stage. The rightists no longer will accept the ballot box, and I sure as hell won't accept their rule by the gun. The only real solution is to let them have their own nation.
     
  5. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    I would take up arms against the US government under the following circumstances or certain combinations of them, in no particular order:

    1. Outright repeal of the majority or key provisions of the Bill of Rights, either de jure or de facto. Any repeal of the 2d Amendment accompanied by violent firearm confiscation programs.
    2. Federal martial law, curfews, etc., declared without an extreme exigency like a virulent pandemic or nuclear war.
    3. Suspension of habeas corpus combined with regular abuses of same committed against US citizens.
    4. Suspension of other due process in varying degrees. If an administrative law court of an executive agency ever has criminal sentencing power, its own jails, armed police, etc., for example, we will be close to crossing that line.
    5. Federal taxation that rises past 25% of GDP. Taxation at all levels that rises past 66% of an upper middle class income (I wouldn't take up arms in this case, just start or participate in organized tax revolts).
    6. Any federal nationalization, confiscation in ANY amount of banks, bank accounts, investment accounts, pension funds, mutual funds. Nationalization of large private sector industries.
    7. Any reinstatement of the draft for an undeclared war. If you are going to draft, you better actually declare war. No actual -war- no draft.

    Probably some more, that's about it for now. Oh, and BTW all the raw, unsubstantiated conjecture in the OP about Trump fomenting violence is the usual crapola we hear about ANY GOP presidential candidate from Nixon on. Don't buy it, it's just LW babbling horsesht.
     
  6. Zorroaster

    Zorroaster Well-Known Member

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    That's fine. Just remember, when you start the war you better be prepared to finish it.

    EDIT: I don't want to mince words, like Trump. So I will say it clearly. For anyone who actually takes up arms against the United States, the penalty should be hanging.

    Not the chair, not lethal injection, not time served.

    Hanging. I would be the first to serve on a jury to vote for such a hanging, and I would proudly pull the lever.
     
  7. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    I have read your posts to this forum, and have no doubt of the above whatsoever.
     
  8. Zorroaster

    Zorroaster Well-Known Member

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    You will tear apart the union in your way, and I will defend it in my way. You made your choice, as did I. Now we will all deal with consequences.
     
  9. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure why the hostility since you did bring the topic up.

    I too am a loyal American and proudly served in the nation's armed forces. But the reason I am an American is because "Washington, Jefferson, Adams, et al " helped institute an armed rebellion against their own government. So I'm not even sure what you are saying now. Are you saying that armed rebellion is never justified or or it was justified once, during the Revolutionary war, and no other attempt at an armed rebellion is legitimate?
     
  10. Brewskier

    Brewskier Well-Known Member

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    Your fellow left-wingers would never allow for this to happen. They wouldn't give up the money, power, and land that this would require. Their solution is to import as many 3rd world Hispanics as possible to make "rightists" outnumbered and marginalized, no matter where they are in the country.
     
  11. Guyzilla

    Guyzilla Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The purpose of our form of government, and all the updates, and the ABILITY TO UPDATE, were to preclude the need to slaughter half the population to get accord.

    Should our form of Government not be capable of sluffing off tyranny, given its unique addressings of other forms shortcomings, what conceivable upgrades are possible?

    Save proportional representation? Or do we simply have a system that needs to be awash in blood periodically?
     
  12. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    You have no doubt that he would support punishing those who engage in an illegal violent overthrow of our government?

    Neither do I and to him I say BRAVO.
     
  13. Zorroaster

    Zorroaster Well-Known Member

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    It's an existential question.

    Revolution is such an extreme step that it is hardly ever justified. Look at the history of armed rebellions over the past few centuries. The outcome is almost universally negative.

    Were the founders justified in their rebellion against the crown? Had they failed, history would have judged them madmen and applauded their executions.

    Were the Bolsheviks justified in their revolt against the Czar? Undoubtedly the Czarist monarchy was corrupt, inefficient, and cruel. But it would have been infinitely better for the world had they failed.

    The idea that a bunch of yahoos with guns is going to decide to override an election because they disagree with the results is not a permissible interpretation of the 2nd amendment. To me, this is essentially what guys like Sanskrit are saying. And yes, I am hostile to that. Damn hostile.

    They need to to realize, in no uncertain terms, that the rest of the country will not sit still for it. So I say again, if you want to start the revolution, you better be prepared finish it.
     
  14. Bravo Duck

    Bravo Duck Member

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    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

    That's all the Second Amendment people are saying,if you have a problem with that, take it up with the Founding Fathers.
     
  15. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I just don't think the United States is immune from the forces of history.
     
  16. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Dude - don't you ever get tired of playing this victim card? Woe is me, I have to share this country with other people ... give it up.
     
  17. Brewskier

    Brewskier Well-Known Member

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    Tell that to the Native Americans. For some reason the left seems to sympathize with them having to share the country. Go figure.
     
  18. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well no one is arguing that a bunch of "yahoos with guns" get a veto on an election. I'm not sure who is even on that side of the argument. Certainly [MENTION=64711]Sanskrit[/MENTION] didn't advocate overthrowing elections he didn't like with armed force.

    I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about rebellions in general, and you were really talking about this election and a Hillary win.

    Dude, chill. No one is arguing armed rebellion if there is a Hillary win. You need to turn off MSNBC. I think you are getting crazed.
     
  19. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Problem is - history has shown that in about 70% of revolutions, the revolutionaries BECOME the destructive force.
     
  20. Guyzilla

    Guyzilla Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you are giving in to the logic that we must periodically suffer civil war?

    - - - Updated - - -

    That is PRECISELY the position of OATHKEEPERS, militia and others. Many in those ranks think it is ALREADY justified to start the RACE/CIVIL war.
     
  21. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    If you follow through with those kinds of threats you may be able to take it up with them yourself because you'll very likely be meeting them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually more than a few have responded to Trump's remarks by saying they would do just that.
     
  22. Zorroaster

    Zorroaster Well-Known Member

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    The current election is only the proximate concern. The central issue is the idea that the 2nd amendment was intended by the founders as a defense against the government itself.

    And no, I have no belief that 2nd amendment yahoos will actually attempt an armed insurrection...unless you are bringing the beer and barbecue. What they will do, however, is just as effective (and a lot more insidious). They will attempt to use the 2nd amendment to intimidate and silence opposition. Just what some in academia and media try to do through social pressure, the right will try to do through open carry.

    Incidentally, how free will most people be to place that Sanders sticker on a bumper, when neighbors carry stickers like this:

    [​IMG]

    That is the real purpose, as opposed to the alleged purpose, of a lot of current-day 2nd amendment activism. Modern political activism is not about "ideas" primarily, but about enforcing social norms through intimidation and/or the threat of violence. And if it's just a 'joke', so much the better. Your intended target can never be completely sure if you're serious or not. This adds to the uncertainty and fear...just as intended.

    Incidentally, I don't watch MSNBC except for amusement purposes.
     
  23. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I'll simply note that we actually had one.


    I guess I don't know enough about the Oathkeepers since I've not heard they were in favor of either a race war or civil war. I'm sure you can document that of course.
     
  24. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Open carry is now a threat of insurection? Guess he country has been under threat since inception.
     
  25. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Really? Let's see it.
     

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