I NEVER SAID THE INVASION WAS DUE TO SLAVERY. I said the war was due to slavery...that if the issue of slavery were not an issue...the southern states would never have seceded...and the war would not have been fought. Quote me...and STOP paraphrasing what I said. Quote what I said...and comment on what I actually said rather than what you want me to have said. QUOTE ME...so we both know what I said. You are fighting a windmill of your own making right now. - - - Updated - - - The UNION...decided to fight the rebellion. I think they were right in doing so... ...and I am happy they won.
Not only did Lincoln make an Illegal war that got more of our soldiers killed than any other war in our history...Lincoln comitted Terrorism, you know, waging war upon civilians.
They left over 300,000 good men laying dead in Southern dust. And they lost their beloved Tyrant President. But they did preserve the Union.
What the Democrats refuse to understand is that elections were held in the South over the matter of secession. When the public votes for X or Y, you don't invade them and try to force them to obey you. Abe was wanting to force Americans to obey him. And he simply managed the feds. Not the states.
Frank wants it both ways. I wish he had visited the sites we are talking about. Were he to go visit the battle sites, of the start of the war, he would know that Abe Invaded. Abe was federal and each state ruled itself. To say it was over slavery but not over the invasion by Abe is to show a lack of interest in the true history.
Frank, had you visited the actual combat sites, you would realize you are still saying what I said you said. First, with no invasion, there was no war. Abe opened up his war with an invasion. And you misquote Abe as well. Abe never said his war, his invasion of VA was over slavery.
Absoluetly. The Southern States voted fair and square to secede from the Union. Lincoln committed an act of War against the South on his own, without a Congressional vote. That's a direct violation of the US Constitution. Only one of many by the Tyrant.
This is what Abe had to say about it: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." But what would he know!
The congress authorized a war against rebellious states. And he Union won! - - - Updated - - - A war was fought...people died...there was a loser and a victor. The Union survived. If it makes you feel better about yourself to call Abraham Lincoln a Tyrant President...go for it.
Why don't you quote what I said that you claim was a misquote. I dare you to quote something I wrote that was a misquote of Abraham Lincoln. I defy you to quote something I wrote that was a misquote of Abraham Lincoln. But you won't. You will continue to make stuff up...and then argue against what you invent. Hey...you are good for a laugh.
Yea I think slavery was a big factor that pushed over a war. If slavery wasn't an issue (as in, it was just legal forever, no more debate), then it probably would have been fought over something else as the final push factor. Because the regional divide itself was still what the main incentive for the war was. We don't have the regional divide anymore, so that's why we aren't going to war.
Old Honest Abe quotes...Interesting reading: (sorry for the emojis... I made CopyPasta, & they came to dinner) "A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure permanently half-slave and half-free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved - I do not expect the house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other."Lincoln's 'House-Divided' Speech in Springfield, Illinois, June 16, 1858. "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincolnedited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VIII, "Speech to One Hundred Fortieth Indiana Regiment" (March 17, 1865), p. 361. "What I do say is, that no man is good enough to govern another man, without that other's consent. I say this is the leading principle - the sheet anchor of American republicanism." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Peoria, Illinois" (October 16, 1854), p. 266. "We think slavery a great moral wrong, and while we do not claim the right to touch it where it exists, we wish to treat it as a wrong in the territories, where our votes will reach it." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Speech at New Haven, Connecticut" (March 6, 1860), p. 16. "In 1841 you and I had together a tedious low-water trip, on a Steam Boat from Louisville to St. Louis. You may remember, as I well do, that from Louisville to the mouth of the Ohio there were, on board, ten or a dozen slaves, shackled together with irons. That sight was a continual torment to me; and I see something like it every time I touch the Ohio, or any other slave-border." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Letter to Joshua F. Speed" (August 24, 1855), p. 320. "I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VII, "Letter to Albert G. Hodges" (April 4, 1864), p. 281. "I do but quote from one of those speeches when I declare that "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861. "In the first place, I insist that our fathers did not make this nation half slave and half free, or part slave and part free. I insist that they found the institution of slavery existing here. They did not make it so, but they left it so because they knew of no way to get rid of it at that time." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Lincoln-Douglas Debate at Quincy" (October 13, 185, p. 276. "I think slavery is wrong, morally, and politically. I desire that it should be no further spread in these United States, and I should not object if it should gradually terminate in the whole Union." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Speech at Cincinnati, Ohio" (September 17, 1859), p. 440. "In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free - honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth. Other means may succeed; this could not fail. The way is plain, peaceful, generous, just - a way which, if followed, the world will forever applaud, and God must forever bless." Lincoln's Second Annual Message to Congress, December 1, 1862. "I do not wish to be misunderstood upon this subject of slavery in this country. I suppose it may long exist, and perhaps the best way for it to come to an end peaceably is for it to exist for a length of time. But I say that the spread and strengthening and perpetuation of it is an entirely different proposition. There we should in every way resist it as a wrong, treating it as a wrong, with the fixed idea that it must and will come to an end." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Speech at Chicago, Illinois" (March 1, 1859), p. 370. "Now, I confess myself as belonging to that class in the country who contemplate slavery as a moral, social and political evil, having due regard for its actual existence amongst us and the difficulties of getting rid of it in any satisfactory way, and to all the constitutional obligations which have been thrown about it; but, nevertheless, desire a policy that looks to the prevention of it as a wrong, and looks hopefully to the time when as a wrong it may come to an end." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Lincoln-Douglas Debate at Galesburg" (October 7, 185, p. 226. "I think that one of the causes of these repeated failures is that our best and greatest men have greatly underestimated the size of this question (slavery). They have constantly brought forward small cures for great sores---plasters too small to cover the wound. That is one reason that all settlements have proved so temporary---so evanescent." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Speech at Cincinnati, Ohio" (September 17, 1859), p. 15. "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Letter To Henry L. Pierce and Others" (April 6, 185, p. 376. "You think slavery is right and ought to be extended; we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted. For this, neither has any just occasion to be angry with the other. " The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Letter to John A. Gilmer" (December 15, 1860), p. 152. "You think slavery is right and ought to be extended; while we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted. That I suppose is the rub. It certainly is the only substantial difference between us." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Letter to Alexander H. Stephens" (December 22, 1860), p. 160. "I did say, at Chicago, in my speech there, that I do wish to see the spread of slavery arrested and to see it placed where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in course of ultimate extinction." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Springfield, Illinois" (July 17, 185, p. 514. "Slavery is founded in the selfishness of man's nature - opposition to it, is his love of justice. These principles are an eternal antagonism; and when brought into collision so fiercely, as slavery extension brings them, shocks, and throes, and convulsions must ceaselessly follow." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Peoria, Illinois" (October 16, 1854), p. 271. "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, (August 1, 1858?), p. 532. "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388. "I have always hated slavery, I think as much as any abolitionist." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Chicago, Illinois" (July 10, 185, p. 492. "Do the people of the South really entertain fears that a Republican administration would, directly, or indirectly, interfere with their slaves, or with them, about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you, as once a friend, and still, I hope, not an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears."The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Letter to Alexander H. Stephens" (December 22, 1860), p. 160. "I believe the declara[tion] that 'all men are created equal' is the great fundamental principle upon which our free institutions rest; that negro slavery is violative of that principle; but that, by our frame of government, that principle has not been made one of legal obligation; that by our frame of government, the States which have slavery are to retain it, or surrender it at their own pleasure; and that all others---individuals, free-states and national government---are constitutionally bound to leave them alone about it. I believe our government was thus framed because of the necessity springing from the actual presence of slavery, when it was framed. That such necessity does not exist in the teritories[sic], where slavery is not present." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Letter to James N. Brown" (October 18, 185, p. 327. "I hold it to be a paramount duty of us in the free states, due to the Union of the states, and perhaps to liberty itself (paradox though it may seem) to let the slavery of the other states alone; while, on the other hand, I hold it to be equally clear, that we should never knowingly lend ourselves directly or indirectly, to prevent that slavery from dying a natural death---to find new places for it to live in, when it can no longer exist in the old."The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume I, "Letter to Williamson Durley" (October 3, 1845), p. 348. "So plain that no one, high or low, ever does mistake it, except in a plainly selfish way; for although volume upon volume is written to prove slavery a very good thing, we never hear of the man who wishes to take the good of it, by being a slave himself." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Fragment on Slavery" (April 1, 1854?), p. 222. "This is a world of compensations; and he who would be no slave, must consent to have no slave." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincolnedited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Letter To Henry L. Pierce and Others" (April 6, 1859), p. 376. "I hate it because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself. I hate it because it deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world."The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Peoria, Illinois" (October 16, 1854), p. 255. "If we cannot give freedom to every creature, let us do nothing that will impose slavery upon any other creature." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Chicago, Illinois" (July 10, 185, p. 501. "Free labor has the inspiration of hope; pure slavery has no hope." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Fragment on Free Labor" (September 17, 1859?), p. 462. I repeat the declaration made a year ago, that 'while I remain in my present position I shall not attempt to retract or modify the emancipation proclamation, nor shall I return to slavery any person who is free by the terms of that proclamation, or by any of the Acts of Congress.' If the people should, by whatever mode or means, make it an Executive duty to re-enslave such persons, another, and not I, must be their instrument to perform it. Lincoln's Fourth Annual Message to Congress, December 6, 1864. "We were proclaiming ourselves political hypocrites before the world, by thus fostering Human Slavery and proclaiming ourselves, at the same time, the sole friends of Human Freedom." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Springfield, Illinois" (October 4, 1854), p. 242. "Without slavery the rebellion could never have existed; without slavery it could not continue." Lincoln's Second Annual Message to Congress, December 1, 1862. "I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VIII, "Speech to One Hundred Fortieth Indiana Regiment" (March 17, 1865), p. 361. http://rogerjnorton.com/Lincoln95.html
History is what it is. Don't BS historical facts. Lincoln called for the Union states to come up with 75,000 troops to invade the South. Only Congress can do that. Then he ordered the military blockade of Southern ports. An act of War. Once again without Congressional approval. Tyrants rule like a king, to Hell with Congressional approval, and the US Constitution that Lincoln swore to uphold in his Presidential oath of office. Violating the Presidential oath of office can lead to a big headache. Just ask Lincoln.
I am dealing with a poster that makes a lot of statements and when called on them, acts as if we readers of his posts have no clue what he means. This is typical for the Democratic posters.
It amazes me to read Democrats defend that which Abe did to this country . I realize he was a republican, but not all republicans did fine things to this country. We suffer today his actions and turmoil still exists and more than in the South, in the entire nation. It is like he busted open a cancer and it spread far and wide.
Vietnam ripped the nation apart with only 60,000 dead and a population of 300 million. Lincoln's war cost 500,000 dead when the population was only 30 million. Yet Lincoln is a hero to the blind and dumb.
wrong of course. There are always regional divides. Civil War like Vietnam War was result of slow escalation causes by deadly fools not knowing when to quit or when to start. Blacks would have been far better off without the war.
We did not yet have 300 million in the 60s and early 70s but point well taken. Of all presidents, he set the record for number that died. And he never declared war either. Congress did not either. http://civilwartalk.com/threads/did-lincoln-declare-war-on-the-confederacy.1183/
I think it's easy to see why the average Southerner fought. They were fighting an invading army. Once Lincoln sent troops South, politics, ideology and how one felt about tariffs or slavery took a back seat to defending one's homeland. In my own family's case, 8 of 11 brothers all joined in 1861. One joined in May and the other 7 joined in August. They all joined Mississippi units for one year. Those units became part of the Confederate army and the one year enlistment became for the duration. 4 of those 8 brothers, including my ggg Grandfather, never made it home. Now, my wife is a Connecticut Yankee and her ancestor fought with a Connecticut artillery unit. He was wounded in battle and his wife sold most of their land to pay for him to be fetched home so he wouldn't die in a field hospital. He survived. Not sure 'why' he fought. Most likely he was already part of a state militia unit that was called up.
estimates are that 100,000 blacks died from starvation and disease immediately after war so it was disaster even for them. Slow conservative change would have worked much better
What is instructive is to visit both Mt. Vernon and Monticello. Monticello is in foothills west of Richmond, VA and you can see today the slave quarters. While not the red roof inn, at least it is better than those tents the troops had to use when available to them. Mt. Vernon has a bit more costly slave quarters. Where slaves worked, they had a garden to get food from. I don't know details on the meat but they could have had chickens. Those mature quickly.
The framing documents of America dictate the answer. You do not support them. People need to know that and that your covert agenda is not about rights and freedoms.
Your "NO" means no defense for rights and freedoms. Pretending to be stupid will not make people stupid. But as a cognitive infiltrator, there is not much more you can do when confronted with common knowledge and common sense that can take your masters down. . . If the people use it in their lawful and peaceful revolution. And you argue against it while arguing for politics as usual. That ought to get laughs considering the righteous position you attempt to assume. You evade explaining how they will Be anything but business as usual with the PURPOSE of free speech abridged. If the framers intended for Americans to alter or abolish government destructive to unalienable rights, what did they intend to serve the PURPOSE of enabling the unity required to effectively alter or abolish if it was not free speech? The NWO has lots of American born agents and politicians, the CIA, the Koch bros. have plenty of money to hire agents to work against Americans seeking to defend then enforce the 1787 constitution for preservation of their rights. Here is a sample for those reading of the extent of cognitive infiltration existent on the web today. http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/snowden_cyber_offensive2_nbc_document.pdf http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE95K0ZV20130621?irpc=932 For decades, the NSA and GCHQ have worked as close partners, sharing intelligence under an arrangement known as the UKUSA agreement. They also collaborate with eavesdropping agencies in Canada, Australia and New Zealand under an arrangement known as the "Five Eyes" alliance.
Good seeing you again, Frank. I have been gone from here so long, they made me re register . .. Go figure.
Pretty nifty working in your hatred of America into your post, what about Australia originally being a penis colony ?
