Paul Keating is right!!!

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...ck-win/ar-AAk7IVe?li=AAgfYrC&ocid=mailsignout

I think the guy nailed it, we have to find our own way.

One country after another demolishes democracy, we have started under Abbott, the Russian with Putin a long time ago, Erdogan in Turkey and so on. France will be next.
Now Americans have elected their dictator.

Any thoughts on this one?
Regards

 

The ALP are the train wreck, slapstick sideshow of Australian politics. So I'm glad he is keeping up the effort. I like watching Bob Carr too, he is hilarious. I sort of miss KRudd though, he looks really sad about not getting to be Hilary's minion. Gilliard seemed to miss the point again, being sad a women did not become President. So much fun watching their delusions confront them. The Green's have been quiet!!! Perhaps they all boarded the alien mothership - at least they finally stopped living in their parents houses I guess.

But what a bunch of silly nonsense. We are already doing as much as we can in the region. We have no capacity to exert any security beyond what we are already doing so we cannot replace the US in the region or compete with it. Currently there are 2 players, the US alliance and the Chinese. Perhaps he is suggesting we side with the Chinese... and what does he mean by that exactly?

 

I agree with m2catter, Keating is right, no one is suggesting we try and muscle our way around the region, instead can Australia at a minimum not follow the US into every (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) war they start.

I don't particularly like Julie Bishop but that's irrelevant since she's excellent at her job and therefore I believe we are more than capable to put in place a foreign policy that reflects Australia's views and protects Australia's interests, especially since Donald is on a collision course with the Chinese, who pretty much sets the prices for our resources... do we really have to wallow in the Trump mud and stink with the Americans, no I think it's vital we make it clear we do not share his misogynist, racist and Islamophobic views...

yes cut that tag and do it ASAP

 

I love how there is never any substance. What exactly do you mean though? Our foreign policy is our own, and we don't do everything the US asks us, that is just fearmongering lies to drum up emotions in sheeples. Much the same sort of stuff Trump does but coming from the other direction.

If your worried about human rights then you should certainly have a good look at China's actual record and conduct. Trump has 'done' nothing, and as Howard said last night on 730 Report, since he has been elected, we should now react to his actions - not predict the worst for no good reason.

Lets not get into a race to the bottom to satisfy some urge for portraying an image of moral superiority to satisfy our egos. The US is deeply integrated in the Asian region in the areas of security and trade so you cannot mean to ignore having relationships with them. Everyone is going to have to work with him, and if we don't then others will. Making some moral statement is going to achieve nothing, and is not needed because its already been said by both sides. Keating is just again reaching, trying to appear relevant in the absence of actual constructive advice.

 

Are you for real? Have you actually looked at Saudi Arabia's misogynist, racist, sexist and Christianphobic views lately? Your biased face is showing.

By the way, Saudi Arabia was just given entry in the UN's Human Rights Commission - a country that still executes homosexual individuals, and refuses to allow women to drive on their own.

 

You do realise you are comparing Saudi Arabia with America...

 

Paul Keating is a narcissist. He is just headline grabbing. I admire Keating for his tenaciousness and at the time his forward thinking, but now he is becoming that blithering old man looking for gratification.

Our ties with the USA is mainly political not economic at this stage.

Australians are like Jack Russell dogs. They think they are bigger and more important than what we really are in global terms. If you think we do not need the USA you are all fools. What are you going to do when the Red Giant comes looking for new territories in which to feed their hoards? Grab your cap gun and head to the front line? You can be sure the cagey Mr Keating will of squirrelled himself far away from the fight.

Luckily enough none of us will likely see the inevitable destruction of human kind, but you can be sure it will come. Overpopulation, and all the burdens that it carries, demands it.

Just remember if it wasn't for the good 'ol US of A, you wouldn't be enjoying your current freedoms. Freedom to defame, freedom to garner countless welfare payments, freedom of working hours, and I could go on and on.

So before you go latching on to errant words of a has been struggling with his relevance in his aging years, give good thought of what our future may of been, and what our future may hold without the protection of our closest ally.

We are a land of plenty, and plenty would like our land.

 

Unfortunately I doubt the US at this stage can find Australia on the map without assistance, so while you wait for them to save you, I'll be looking in another direction, besides no one is suggesting we have no ties with the US, just not the puppet/master style relationship that landed us in Iraq looking for WMD

ps. how do you classify a free trade agreement (AUSFTA) not economical?

as far as this goes vvvv... I think you're a fool to place all your trust in the US of A, if it's not in their interest we will be just another Crimea, they've got their hands full in the middle east.

speak for yourself, if this is how you see yourself then yes you probably couldn't survive without a crutch.

 

WMD's you mean?

What direction do you believe you should be looking in then? I imagine up toward heaven, praying like all buggery that help was at hand. Much like the nation did in WW2.

The world is not all Rainbows and skittles, it is no different than it has been for as long as humans have polluted the earth. The biggest and strongest run the show. It has always been this way, and unfortunately always will. It is human nature.

You are correct in thinking that we are a blip on the map, so it confounds me that you think that we can choose the terms in which we enter a relationship with a country the size and the power of the USA.

If you do not wish to be the puppet of the USA then take your chances in the big pool. See how long you swim free and easy.

 

Do you understand what it would mean for Australia to lose China as a buyer for our resources.... you do realise they are very much increasing their business in Africa... and it's all resources.

You are so blinded by your star spangled glasses you can't see how it can destroy us economically if Donald Trump drags us into a confrontation with China. The world is changing all the time and we need to change with it.

We will wait and see if Donald Trump actually does what he said he's going to do, but as far as I'm concerned we're going to have to start thinking for ourselves ito foreign policy to protect our relationship with China.

We are possibly going to find ourselves in a position to choose if we side/align with one of the two superpowers too strongly, I say become independent and stay out of trouble.... grow a pair and don't take sides

 

Please... where are you getting this from? Karl Stephanovic? You confuse me.

China still does business with us now, and lots of it, even though, as you say, we are puppets of the USA. China will deal with whoever represents the best value, end of story.

Trump is not going to enter into a stink with China, where are you getting this from? China owns three quarters of the US debt, and the US is China's biggest trading partner, without the USA buying crap from China, China would implode economically. They will have the odd chest puff, but money talks, and why wreck a good thing. Any argument between China and the States will be purely for the benefit of onlookers. There was more chance of a stoush if Clinton got in due to her hardline stance on the South China Sea.

Trump may be as useless as Obama. Yes the Republicans have the numbers in the congress but half of them denounced his nomination, so that is no sure bet.

I think sometimes people listen to the mainstream puss providers for their information too much. They are in the business of shock and awe, and their headlines read much better if there is some kind of controversy, true or not.

If I read between the lines and you are looking to China for stability, you are going to be sadly disappointed in the outcome. China is for China. They do not hide the fact.

Scarlet Witch you have confused me with your comment about resources. I would of imagined that you would of been glad to see the end of mining fossil fuels, and more in line with clean Green. Perhaps I took liberty in thinking that, if so I apologise.

A lot will change domestically under Trump, but internationally I don't think he cares about. They have big problems at home to solve, he will leave the international stuff to people more qualified than him. At least for the time being.

As far as Australia is concerned it will be business as usual. We will still have our massive deficit. We will still have two morons battling for front page headlines. We will still have bloated housing prices. Bondi Beach will still be overcrowded. Footballers will still do stupid things. AND we will still debate on this forum.

However, not sure if Tony Abbott will still eat an onion with its skin on though.

Who am I kidding, of course he will !

Vladamir might take selfies with AK47's, but would he really be man enough to eat a raw onion with it's skin on?

One of my all time favourite moments........ Thanks Tone !

 

I read up to this point and realised you do not know what Trump said about China, you need to familiarise yourself with this information first.

You are also naive if you think China will not retaliate, as stated before they are already buying more and more of Africa's resources. You need to wake up.

NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/business/international/trump-china-us-trade-war.html?_r=0

http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-pledge-to-get-tough-on-china-raises-threat-of-trade-war-1478804077

 

Trump isn't a dictator (yet). We should all give the bloke a chance. He may prove to be not the dickhead I thought he was. There's a lot of stuff flying around in the States at the moment but let's get real, he isn't in office yet, so cannot be blamed. It is interesting - and sad - to see what's happening though. It's as if bigots think it's now okay to act like bigots and not just think like bigots. That will settle down, but not until some damage has been done.

As far as alliances go, the US would not be our ally if there weren't something in it for them. And I can't blame them for that. That's what any nation would do.

The world is a different place since the ANZUS treat was first signed. Perhaps it's time for us to take a breath and see if the continued alliance with the US is in our interests.

 

I know exactly what he said. He has said worse. However what he has said to garner the working class vote and what he does or what he is allowed to do will be two different things. YOU have to be naive if you believe a politician carries through on what they promise during an election campaign.

He built his whole campaign on inciteful comments. This is how he micro managed the media at a fraction of the cost of the Clinton campaign. Remembering the media are drawn to shock and awe.

For all his rhetoric and bluster, Trump will be about as effective as Obama. I hope he does impose import tarriffs and kick start local manufacturing and employment, although 45% will be a reach considering how many American companies are tied to Chinese manufacturing.

But you go ahead and lay in bed with China if that helps you sleep at night, because they are so much better than the USA.

 

Slip,
why do you expect China to attack/swallow us?
I don't like their South China Sea expansions, but I don't see it that negative.
Regards

 

Wise words Diuretic.

So lets break this down. Realistically for a nation the size of ours we have to lay in bed with at least one of the big dogs.

You have our traditional snuggling the USA. We know what we get here, and as wounded as they currently are you would be hard pressed to argue their days at the top are over.

Then you have their traditional rivals Russia. They always seem one step away from anarchy. They really offer nothing economically and politically they are about as stable as one legged chair. Plus Vlad wants to jump old Jackie, that can't end well.

So what about Europe? Well they are a bit busy finding a new patsy to finance their new world order. Plus the French are involved and we all know how easily they jump beds.

Britain anyone? God no, please. They would throw us under the bus in a heartbeat. New Guinea anyone?

So that leaves the mighty Dragon to our north. They have made it abundantly clear that whatever they do is for China, and China only. They want our resources, including land. They are actively pursuing strategic aquisitioning throughout the South China Sea. They have many mouths to feed and have now relaxed the one child policy. This is expansionist by concept. Australia has boundless opportunities for an overpopulated and economically under noirished people.

So who do you choose? Who do you kick the Yanks out of bed for?

 

It wont happen in our time Cats, but they are progressing with their expansionist policy. Aquiring foreign assets, scrapping the one child policy in favour of population growth, and building strategic positions in and around their closest neighbors.

They detest Japan, and for good reason. They trust nobody Cats. As you know I work in and with Chinese business and I can tell you that they only have allegiance to China.

The hard truth is we are but pea in global terms, so we need a protector.

All this hysteria about Trump is exactly that, hysteria.

One thing is certain though China has not got ennough of anything to sustain any reasonable increase in their population and we may well be the wealthiest and easiest target. With no USA by our side protecting their own interests here, we will be a lot easier than you could ever imagine.

 

Hi Slip,
I will need time to think it through, good comments,
cheers mate

 

Trump is not a politician, he is an unknown and we will see whether he's going to do backflips on election promises, the likes of which the world has never seen, because that's what you're suggesting he's going to do.

Also I find your "pick a side" solution very narrow minded, so you pick America and we end up losing our biggest buyer for resources. There is no picking China for protection but then again if they did invade Australia, it's going to be so fast and so overwhelming no one is going to be able to do anything about it, not even the US, so stop dreaming about them protecting you and do what's best for your country with what you've got.

Instead of cowering we need to do whatever we can to protect our economy from a Trump fallout with China and I honestly believe this is what the government is already doing on the quiet.

ps. let's imagine a Chinese invasion, so the US charges in with their big bombs and flatten Australia, to save us like they saved Iraq. I think you need to start taking your rose coloured glasses off and consider what "US protection" actually means. It's a big stick with a bite that ends up destroying countries under a guise of saving. We're in a catch-22 when it comes to China and need to do whatever we can, to not anger Beijing (nor Washington for that matter) and foster a good relationship because yes we are pretty much at their mercy, economically and security wise.

 

cutting the tag means neutrality, Switzerland pulled it off and we're simply going to have to walk that tightrope. Thank god we've got Julie Bishop and not someone like Alexander Downer

 

He was Australia's most intelligent politician. Certainly had foresight that nobody else had and was years ahead in his thinking.

Interestingly it is Howard who has grave reviews about where America is headed under Trump.

I agree with Keating that Australian society is a few steps ahead of the USA. Probably one of the reasons why are our laws around free speech. We are a much more tolerant and peaceful country as a consequence. Free speech and the right to bear arms is just asking for a tragedy every day of the week!

 

We mainly export fossil resources and Agriculture product. China is the biggest driver of mining in Australia, but they are only just emerging in agriculture. The USA, Indonesia, and Japan are our biggest agriculture partners. China may in time get on board, but they are more interested in owning the land and THEIR companies exporting THEIR product out of THEIR port(Darwin), on THEIR ships. No Australian company involved. Then under the TPP( which Trump is for scrapping), they would be able to bring in THEIR own workforce on Their own planes, and pay them out of THEIR own system. THEIR aim is to be totally independent of any other nation.

But you go right ahead and bow low for the Dragon, and let them reap our resources for very little return. I will take my chances with the Yanks thanks.

Neutrality? Please.

It works for Switzerland because outside of Chocolate and Roger Federer, they have nothing anybody wants. They hide money for the worlds elite. Keep secrets as bargaining chips. Basically they exist in a twisted style of extortion. And good for them, Australians aren't that smart.

I don't like the fact we need to cozy up to another nation as much as you don't. BUT unlike yourself I do not live in the Rainbow Connection, I live in the real world. Where the human stain is getting bigger, and more hostile, and as the worlds population booms, wars will be fought over food, water, and energy. Unlike your role model Switzerland, Australia has an abundance of all the above, and a very small ill equipped populace to defend it. Also as you say, we are isolated, so mobilisation will be slow. Right now everything is rosie for good old OZ, but in a hundred years or so when the hoards are starving, what do you believe desperation will bring?

Ni Hao means hello

Huānyíng wǒ de zhǔrén means welcome my master

Best you learn that!

 

ok clearly we have two very different lines of thought, I think you're stuck in the ww2 mindset where America was still the only superpower. Today America is not the strongest superpower anymore, and many believe the decline of Washington (Rome style - from the inside out) have started with the election of Trump, whether that's true remains to be seen.

I think choosing the US above China is narrow sighted, simply because there is no way the US will start a war with China (one that will kill billions of people and likely destroy the planet) because they've invaded Australia. Therefore there's no reason to cower behind America's leg so they can protect us, at best they may start sanctions against China, sanctions unlikely to be supported by the rest of the world. Weapons and military capability of the superpowers, of our modern age have rendered protection impossible, they are too destructive.

Therefore we need to instead make sure we do not get caught in a confrontation between Washington and Beijing, we need to get the hell out of the way, remain neutral.

 

Obviously something you have forgotten, when you make your biased statements against an elected American President, but refuse to accuse Saudi Arabia of the same injustices.

Have a nice day.

 

So correct me if I am wrong, but what you are saying is do not get tied to either? What if they insist as part of conditions of trade? Which is more than likely.

Look I am against Globalisation, we are too small to truly benefit from it. Hence why small populations such as Switzerland has resisted joining in on the global economy, they just get gobbled up. Unfortunately if you want to be part of a Globalised economy, you must choose a side, or at least walk the tight rope of stroking egos. Globalisation in it's essence requires alliances, much like the show Survivor. When the tribes merge sides are picked and the game is played, until eventually there is but one winner. The reason I hate the show Survivor, is that it accurately depicts human nature, and can be used as an example of the larger, broader world that we humans have built for ourselves.

You say bend over for China, I say bend over for the States. It is essentially the same argument, except we both advocate taking it from a different partner.

I already stated there would be no confrontation between the two powers earlier in our debate. They have a love hate relationship, they both benefit from each other.

Right now the Aussies are perhaps in a unique position to do another Bradbury. We are already seeing commodity prices going through the roof, and now China has a major competitor if Trump gets his way and starts up his 'Rebuild America Policy'.

We have been walking the narrow path between backing our big Brother the USA, and appeasing our Sugar Daddy China for more than a decade now, so why the big panic? We have what they both want, and plenty of it. Let's make some money and pay down some debt.

There was more chance of confrontation if Clinton got in. Trump is nationalistic, his concerns are at home. China would be happy that he is there and not Clinton. Clinton would of demanded a resolution to the South China sea. Trump being elected has averted a possible three way showdown between the USA, China, and Russia.