Diesel farms make fresh bids to supply National Grid back-up power

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by jackdog, Dec 14, 2016.

  1. jackdog

    jackdog Well-Known Member

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    Guess those wind farms the UK government thought would solve all their problems is not working out near as well as they thought they would

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/06/diesel-farms-national-grid-tax-breaks

    The owner of Britain’s energy network is gearing up to buy more power from suppliers to ensure the country’s lights stay on, with polluting diesel generators among the providers vying for contracts.

    The National Grid needs back-up electricity sources that kick in when, for instance, demand is high but the weather is not breezy enough to power wind farms. It secures this back-up power through the annual capacity market auction that begins on Tuesday and will see controversial “diesel farms” taking part.
     
  2. jackdog

    jackdog Well-Known Member

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    how to get a thread to sink to the bottom on this forum , post an inconvenient truth about intermittent energy proving it is nothing more than a farce and a colossal waste of money

    whats the matter nothing on Skeptical Science about diesel generators needed to keep the grid up when the wind stops blowing to cut and paste ?
     
  3. sawyer

    sawyer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    An unanswered thread in this sub forum is a victory, you made cultist swallow their gum.
     
  4. jackdog

    jackdog Well-Known Member

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    funny thing is I am all in for renewable energy once we find a way to make it available 24 and 7 at a reasonable cost. Building a wind/solar farm at a outrageous cost then having to build NG/coal/diesel farms to keep the grid up at night, cloudy days, windless days makes no sense to me. I grew up in W Va and remember visiting relatives that lived on the top of a mountain and I recall the wind was blowing there every time I visited it seems like. now if lived in a place like that , damned straight I would have a windmill. A couple of years ago I was building a green house and looked into solar for it. After doing a lot of research and tests I found I would have needed several lead acid batteries and still needed power off the grid to keep it warm enough through the winter months. It was just not cost effective and ended up using a space heater from Lowes. One day if I am bored I may add in a small home made solar collector to heat a 55 gal drum of H2O to use as a heat sink for the green house if I get bored, but don't really expect it to cut my power bill by much if any

    One day solar ande wind might be cost effective, but that day is not today. just look at energy prices where the greenies went wild. Denmark, the UK, Germany, Spain, Australia . All those countries have done nothing but export their pollution and jobs to China and India where the governments gladly burn their coal and oil to provide cheap reliable energy to their citizens and business while the citizens of the UK wonder how to afford to heat their homes
     
  5. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This issue was discussed a few days ago in another thread. More specifically in relation to Germany. That cheap "practically free" electricity makes it harder for the backbone providers to stay afloat. In addition, it isn't steady. The end result is that German electric prices go into the negative, meaning they are willing to pay someone to take the electricity off the grid just to protect the infrastructure when demand is low and it is sunny and windy at the same time. Nuclear reactors cannot be shut down and immediately brought back online, so the cost comes in the form of more traditional plants having to idle their production during off-peak hours which means they are losing money during those periods.
     
  6. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    I thought the UK wind farms were very profitable because of the government subsidies they get. I am sure the diesel farms will be very profitable like that too. And you don't even need wind or diesel for it. Excellent.
     
  7. sawyer

    sawyer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I live in an off grid solar home with golf cart batteries for storage.on a good sunny day I can power my house with solar 24-7 but when the sun don't shine I have my trusty gasoline powered Honda generator at the ready. You need backup power whether your a homeowner a town a city or a country. If some great new battery came along g that could store enough energy for days or even weeks it would be a game changer though.
     
  8. jackdog

    jackdog Well-Known Member

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    when you replace the lead acidsGo with LiPo's. Bettter all the way around, 10 times the life so the higher up front cost is more than made up for and also more efficient in every respect. Just be sure to store them in a fire proof enclosure away from you house since they can be dangerous. Not magic battery yet but they are better than the old school ones. Now when they make something ten times as efficient as LiPos solar could start coming into it's own. I am still hoping for a cheap catalyst of fuel cells, water for fuel , solar for power, collect the hydrogen and exhaust oxygen
     
  9. sawyer

    sawyer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I crunched the numbers on this last year when I replaced my battery bank and just couldn't justify the upfront cost. If you treat your lead acids right ( don't discharge too deep, do periodical over charges, keep them warm and don't over fill or let water get too low,) they last seven to ten years. I am however hoping that when I replace my current batteries the better ones will be more reasonable to purchase. That's assuming I'm still alive at that point though and if I am I really won't be concerned with how long my next batteries last because even lead acid ones will likely outlive me. Sad but true.:smile:
     
  10. jackdog

    jackdog Well-Known Member

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    getting way off topic here but this morning I was reading on how some third world countries are using solar powered coolers for antivenom and vaccine storage and they too are using lead acid batteries so I guess lead acid still has a place
     
  11. sawyer

    sawyer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah don't get me started on home solar and off grid living, I will never stop talking and bore you to years with minutiae. LOL
     
  12. jackdog

    jackdog Well-Known Member

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    I would rather hear about that than endless debates on how many CO2 molecules will fit on the head of a pin or how if we all just ran like lemmings into the sea we could lower atmospheric temps .3 C by the year 2200
     
  13. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Russian Hackers Shift Focus to U.S. Power Grid...
    [​IMG]
    Russian Hackers Appear to Shift Focus to U.S. Power Grid

    July 27, 2018 | WASHINGTON — State-sponsored Russian hackers appear far more interested this year in demonstrating that they can disrupt the American electric utility grid than the midterm elections, according to United States intelligence officials and technology company executives.
     
  14. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    The only elements smaller that a lithium atom are helium and hydrogen and those gases don't look too promising. Lithium seems to be the end of the line for a storage medium.

    Hydrogen from leaking batteries killed submariners in WWII with explosions, and helium is inert.
     
  15. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, I told everyone this years ago, all those insane environmental greenies.

    The most pragmatic option is to have natural gas electric generating power plants to serve as back-up, since natural gas is relatively clean and these type of power plants can be turned on at a moment's notice to provide the back-up.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018
  16. Liberty Monkey

    Liberty Monkey Well-Known Member

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    Energy storage is possible today at reasonable prices in the new builds we're just trying to store the wrong energy!

    New builds where practical should have 500l+ super insulated hot water tanks so we have somewhere to dump the excess energy instead of wasting it.
     
  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I thought the latest high efficiency water heaters had virtually no storage capacity, instead they instantly heat the water so there's no heat losses of hot water sitting around in a tank. So that's just the opposite of what you were saying.

    But I suppose what you are saying might make sense if you're heating the water yourself through solar tubing on the roof.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018
  18. Liberty Monkey

    Liberty Monkey Well-Known Member

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    The Energy wasted in the grid is shocking, this needs to be paired to smart meters to work OR the solar panel on your roof heats the water when the grid doesn't want your energy. We need to bring the wastage down now for renewables to have more meaningful penetration.
     

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