But if there's no proof that it actually happened then why it happened becomes a moot point doesn't it? Or do we just take somebody's word for it?
Right, for example nobody knows why or how a typical atom suddenly blinked into existence. The possibilities are- 1- It randomly appeared out of nowhere 2- An unknown alien intelligence created it 3- It always existed since the beginning of time 4- It doesn't exist and is an illusion Are there any other possibilities I've overlooked?
If you're saying that the universe does not exist, we have no basis for carrying on this discussion... I'd modify your list slightly, to read: 1- It randomly appeared out of nowhere 2- It was created by someone/something 3- It always existed since the beginning of time 4- It doesn't exist and is an illusion Which of those you choose to believe is a matter of faith...
Well Jesus called God "the creator" (Matt 18:4), and he also said- "..you are of this world, I am not of this world..(John 8:14/ 8:23) so whether we should believe an alien visitor to our planet is our own choice..
Of course it exists - how could I look up at a wondrous night sky and deny it? I don't need astrophysicists or anyone else to tell me the universe exists.
` ` Quite frankly, I'm getting sick of religious/theology VS atheist/free-thinkers arguments taking over what should be purely, an exercise in academic, secular, scientific expression. I do no not believe faith nor science to be absolute and allow science to postulate, theoretically or otherwise, to raise logical conjectures. No more god vs no-god crap.
The title of this thread is The Universe: What do we really know? You can be sick of the religious/theology vs. atheist/free-thinker arguments, but I don't think it inappropriate to point out two things in this discussion: (1) whichever set of arguments you subscribe to (whether religious/atheist), there is a good deal of faith involved, and (2) no matter how much we come to know about what the universe is and how it works, answering the question of why it is is just as, if not more, important, so you'll have to just put up with the "god vs no-god crap".
There are also big problems with the Big Bang theory too, it may not be true. E.g. the visibility of objects further away than light would reach since the time the Big Bang is assigned to. Plus the uniformity of the background radiation, also the invention called inflationary period, and so on ... .
The Cyclic Model of the universe is one of many Big Bangs and that we are merely observing the current cycle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model
The Universe requires observation and theoretical discussions based on established facts to be evaluated and understanding expanded. Religion does not in any way fit into or work with this process and is therefore distraction from gaining knowledge. Basically understanding our Universe is a never ending and continuous scientific exploration and religion can be summed up in a short sentence. "God Did It".
Those who question how the universe works are doing important work. Those who question why the universe exists are doing equally important work. Those who say that one of these aspects is important and the other is not? They are simply trying to fool themselves.
` ` I don't mind stating for the record, the two posters above me are seriously into this "god vs no-god crap". They are not interested in science, just their own ideology. That's why this entire sub forum needs better rules that can keep these people out of here.
Saying "God Did It" is not questioning anything, it is eliminating said questioning completely by providing an answer with no data to support it and denying questioning of the result.
Internet forum "Rules" are not defined by your personal opinions or level of tolerance in discussion. For myself, I have great interest and understanding of science as is very obvious in my contributions, You are however free to express opinion of course.
I am very interested in science. Just not to the exclusion of other meaningful pursuits. Saying "God did it, so we no longer need to question how things work" is silly. So is saying "This is how it works, we do not need to question why (or by what intention) it works this way". Sorry, these are not mutually exclusive questions.
The sheer size of the universe makes me almost certain there is alien life. It might not be as intelligent as us genius human beings though. I wonder about space never ending but I also wonder about time never ending or starting. Mind boggling.
One would hope (perhaps in futility) that you understand how the scientific process functions...the OP touches on it. Science never simply states "This is how it works" but instead stipulates it probably works this way but please tell me is it does not. Other people then look into it, tear it apart, and sometimes say no, it does not it works this way...then the process continues. For this reason the initial question in this thread has no answer and never will....science has no problem stating the obvious answer. "We Don't Know".....but we're still looking. Religion just says we already know...trust me. Even though the other thousand versions say the same damn thing.
Whether or not theists are willing to admit it they are threatened by scientific knowledge. When ignorance of the universe was the norm religions codified superstitions and claimed to be the only source of all knowledge. Theists went so far as to threaten those who failed to toe the party line. Gallileo and Newton made their discoveries in spite of the theist hierarchy. Today We the People have the benefit of freedom from religion so science can advance without having to answer to those who embrace superstition and mythology and our scientific knowledge base has expanded enormously. Where theists considered this planet to be the center of the universe science has shown us that our planet is just one of billions and billions, if not trillions, scattered throughout the universe. We are not special, we are just curious and from that curiosity we are learning about the universe that we inhabit.
There are some imponderables for which mankind is destined to never discover the answers. On the other hand there's a growing industry which has turned nonsense-speak into an art form, and pretends that given a continuous governmental research funding stream, they'll sure as hell keep on trying. It's called 'cosmology' and it's run by opportunistic charlatans.
The bottom line is that we've got no choice but to include religion in discussions about life and the universe because the Bible is a chronicle of close encounters between humans and offworld beings! Heck, Jesus himself said he was an alien with awesome powers and that he'd like to clue us in on things- "I know where I came from and where I am going, but you have no idea where I come from or where I am going....you are of this world, I am not of this world...though you do not believe me, believe the miracles...I'll tell you things hidden since the creation of the world" (John 8:14/ 8:23/10:38/Matt 13:35) Hey Spock will you listen to him? "Affirmative, it would be illogical not to listen to an alien visitor, I'm all ears"
Religious superstitions about the "origin of life" have been established as irrelevant as far as science is concerned. Life as we know it comprises of some of the most common elements in the universe so it is logical that life exists across the universe in one form or another.
The alien visitor Jesus wasn't "superstition", he was solid flesh and blood.. As for other life in the universe, maybe JC is out there chumming up with them now- "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold, them also I must bring.." (John 10:16) Other interesting verses worth speculation are- MOTHERSHIP -"Praise to the Lord, to him who rides the ancient skies above, whose power is in the skies." (Psalm 68:33-34) RADIATION SHIELDING- God said "When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by" (Exodus 33:22) GENESIS PROJECT -"God made the worlds.." (Hebrews 11:3 KJV) ORBITAL TRAJECTORY - "God sits on the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22) WARP DRIVE - "God rides upon a swift cloud" (Isaiah 19:1) CLOAKING DEVICE - "God goes by me but I see him not" (Job 9:10) TIME DILATION - "With God a thousand years are as one day" (2 Peter 3: SCOUT SHIP- "I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north, the center of the fire looked like glowing metal" (Ezekiel 1:4) STARGATE- Jesus said - "Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."(Matt 7:13) "And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and relented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, It is enough; now restrain your hand. Then David lifted his eyes and saw the angel of the Lord standing between earth and heaven, having in his hand a drawn sword stretched out over Jerusalem" (1 Chron 21:16/16)
