Healthcare--a right or not?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by WAN, Feb 23, 2017.

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  1. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    How is this different from a kid throwing a tantrum in the candy section of a supermarket aisle screaming "I am entitled to candy, and everybody in this store is going to help pay for it!"?

    If I'm a candy maker, I'm going to raise the price of belch bars to the point that I can afford a mansion and a yacht.
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, health care is not candy. And, polls by Pew and Kaiser show that 60% of America sees it as a requirement of government to ensure that all citizens are covered.
     
  3. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    What makes candy different from health care?

    What if 60% of Americans see it as a requirement of government to ensure that all citizens be given candy purchased with taxes? Would it then be the same as health care?
     
  4. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Let us know when that happens. Lol
     
  5. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    That's one of the stupidest things I've heard. Have you been living under a rock? Haven't you heard of e.g. islamic terrorism? haven't you read about religious wars, about nazism or communism?... There are uncountably many justifications for turning a living human into a dead human. I can't believe that is news to you.

    that's ridiculous. slavery has existed since forever, often regarded as a natural way of doing things. In fact if you were to go back to the bronze age they'd probably tell you slavery was part of natural law, hehe. You really need to read history, you have a very limited perspective on things... you need to understand that for most of history, slavery was completely moral and normal.

    1) if you're not referring to what is commonly called natural law, you should not call it natural law since that is confusing.
    2) there is not really that much constistency among people's moral experiences. Atleast not on stuff like slavery, freedom, rights... read history, you'll see.
    No I'm not, but I'm not suprised you think that. Same as if you tell a religious person you don't believe in god, they will assume you think life in pointless. No... here's how it is: Everyone has their own views of right and wrong. Everyone can try to convince each other to change their views, basing their arguments in things they have in common. For example, I think it's a good thing that people live better lives. So if you support a policy which I think will lead to people living worse lives, I will appeal to you, based on that you also share my goal that people should live better lives. None of this requires there to be any kind of absolute morality. As it happens, there are usually some common ground between people's morals. In the case where there isn't... tough luck.

    very poor logic.. that doesn't follow at all.. Just because there is no absolute morality, it doesn't stop me from forcing my own morality on others. I'll shoot cannibals, not because I believe there is any absolute morality -which there isn't- but because it offends my personal morality. This idea that just because you don't believe in imaginary absolutes, you have to completely surrender to everything... is nonsense. There's a big difference between acknowledging the relativity or morals... and respecting every set of morals.

    well, you still have the problem that there's literally no evidence that your absolute principles exist, and if they don't exist, your whole argument falls apart. I've asked you to show me the proof of their existance. Difference between you and me is that I am honest that I don't see any evidence for absolute principles. And you... you just assume they exist because it allows you to claim a moral highground, because you can avoid unpleasant truths, and feel better.

    nonsense.
     
  6. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    You do know this system works very well in other first world countries.....don't you? Lol
     
  7. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    I was talking about a hospital. I don't want to argue about whether or not increasing requirements of a job increases its cost, cause I'm pretty sure it's true be definition.
     
  8. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe if you check, you will find that is not accurate. Typical patient with doctor time in Japan amounts to about 5 minutes. They pass through the doctors office as if on an assembly line.

    Why would you resist a much better system?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yet at a minimum, 20 million Americans simply rejected the ACA and are not covered.

    Some of you must be insurance firm salesmen.
     
  9. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Japan and most other countries get better care with better outcomes at much less cost. What is not to like?
     
  10. C-D-P

    C-D-P Well-Known Member

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    Does that make it right?
     
  11. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    It makes it completely morally right and good to me
     
  12. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you are accurate, the conclusion has to be that the Government owns hospitals, hires all doctors, nurses and on and on. Free X rays for all.

    I think the Democrats have corrupted America so this nation is becoming what can only be called the rich paying for the rest of us for all things connected to government.

    A nation of free loaders in fact.
     
  13. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Banned

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    You muse incessantly regarding libertarianism and natural right not making sense...and then you tossout this...this...tripe??

    This is some attempt of a positing a formula regarding morality? People can not be "summed" nor thoughts be "averaged".

    Besides, historically speaking what many societies have thought as "good" can be objectively regarded as "evil" in any historical format. As Maximatic has stated, there are concepts such as murder and theft that the vast majority of sane people believe to be wrong.
     
  14. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you the forum expert?

    You Democrats have virtually ruled America since 1933 with brief spells where a republican president had a chance of a snowball in hell of passing his legislation. Normally that allowed by Democrats is all that gets passed.

    You are rare to think that it is enough time for the doctor to give you on average merely 5 minutes. If you are well, even then it takes doctors longer to ensure well health. My own doctor is super quick. He does not even chit chat, I am in and out in 15 minutes normally. but the other day he had me there for maybe 30 minutes to do more checking. Were he booting me out in 5 minutes, he could not do the job correctly.
     
  15. thinkitout

    thinkitout Well-Known Member

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    Actually, here in America we ARE paying for most of the EMERGENCY healthcare of the uninsured, which providers are required to administer, regardless of remuneration or lack of it. Emergency care is by far the most costly and it is more often sought after by the uninsured, who have no access to preventative care.

    Uncollected amounts are added by default to the bills of the insured in the guise of elevated rates and expenses. . . . Since non-negotiated costs of the uninsured are up to ten times the preferred rates of the insured, you can see why America's healthcare costs are so high.

    In the spirit of Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal, I suggest that all uninsured individuals be isolated from society to prevent the spread of undiagnosed communicable diseases.
     
  16. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Banned

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    Is it a legal right in America? In some regards, yes.

    Is it a moral right? Absolutely not!
     
  17. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Prove it forum expert. Let's see your verifiable evidence. Not your experiences which anyone can claim.....I want facts mr expert
     
  18. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    How do you figure out what is good or bad? Let's say that you think X is bad, how do you get from X being amoral to X being moral? Is it just based on a vague feeling that it should be good, but you can't express why?

    But why would cannibalism offend your personal morality?

    There is evidence, because there are shared moral values. Some such as no pissing in my soup are universal in that they are found throughout the world. Even our cannibals don't season the soup with urine. I try to base universals off of shared mutually agreeable values, such as the golden rule. This presupposes that because X is something you don't want me to do to you, then you ought to agree not to do it to me. If you don't want me pissing in your soup, can you agree not to (*)(*)(*)(*) in my soup? This is a win-win situation with both people benefiting by having uncontaminated soup. Nobody loses at the expense of the other. This isn't found everywhere you go, of course, but it is a tautology such as A or not A. If A is a behavior combined with a moral value, then it is either moral behavior or something that is not moral behavior.

    That is the basis of universal principles. You don't have to find them everywhere, or anywhere. It's just a logically consistent prescriptive statement.

    With universal healthcare, there has to be some way to express it in such a way that it is good for everybody involved. It can't be some hybrid form of slavery where it's good for most people, but bad for a few. It has to be good forwards, backwards, and as good for you as it is for everybody else. If it's good for 99% of the people, but bad for 1% of the people, then we've got the Donner party all over again.
     
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Americans are smarter than that.
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You are coming very close to suggesting that we wealthy folk would be better off if we could just cause poor people to not get health care.
     
  21. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have no right to healthcare, just like I have no right to a car.
     
  22. Taxpayer

    Taxpayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A right is something you are due or owed. Depending on what constitution or other contract you subscribe to, anything can be owed to you. In Canada, I believe many kinds of care are owed you by law. In other parts of the world, your neighbors are not required to provide the same care.



     
  23. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    IMO, health care doesn't fit the mole of supply and demand. Everyone will need healthcare.
    If you are saying there isn't enough healthcare providers to increase the supply because demand is greater than supply, I don't see how we just increase more doctors or hospitals.
    It's not a grocery store or electronic store. Very special skills and equipment is needed.
     
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, there are other nations that have private providers even though they ALL have some form of single payer system.

    And, they all have per- visit fees and/or other mechanisms to discourage overuse. So, you don't get a free x-ray even if you pay zero taxes.

    Plus, those systems allow lower cost per capita.

    The major hit on the ACA is that it costs too much - in fact, so much that millions can't even get health care, so much that it is the primary cause of bankruptcy. That's been the major hit on US health care for decades.

    Every other nation figured out what to do about that.

    And, you have no argument against it other than it doesn't fit some predetermined philosophy you seem to think is more important than US citizens getting health care!!
     
  25. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    You are the one who admitted it. So it's not just me or others.
    Being part of an insurance pool is being a part of others lives. The people that makes up the insurance pool determines the price of the premiums.
    Unless you want each person to pay 100% directly to the providers, we are all part of others lives.
    Even then, when there are those that can't pay the providers, they don't do it for free, so they pass the costs on to others.
    So, no matter how you slice it, we are part of others lives.

    Welcome to living in a society.
     
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