Is Western culture "superior" to Arabic cultures?

Yes, bring in tolerant, blonde haired Swedes to the Muslim Arab nations, that'll sort 'em out.

But, the irony is most tolerant, blonde haired Swedes wouldn't want to move to these Muslim Arab nations.

It seems in many cases the tolerant Liberals who claim to adore the Muslim Arabs, simply would rather live among Whites, rather than move to a non-White nation.

 

Tolerate does not mean condone. I can accept that arab culture is backward and anti-freedom in many ways, allow those to live as they want (so long as they do not adversely effect others), without regarding such practices as equal.

 

WRONG. That sentiment is the product of "progressive" propaganda. Western culture is results oriented, and is based on the individual being superior to the government.

An individual's beliefs and attitudes are tolerated - not automatically accepted or made inclusive - as long as those beliefs and attitudes do not unconstitutionally infringe on others

 

We do but they still want to cut off our heads. They want to cut off yours as well infidel. They don't want to bake cookies and sing Kumbaya with flowers in their hair. Go ahead and buy them a Coke. Good luck getting your hand back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VM2eLhvsSM

 

Well, I'd say Muslim cultures, rather than Arabic. Islam is the religion, Arabic is essentially the Middle East. Western political & religious & sexual culture is much more open than Islamic culture in general, even when the latter is as liberal as it gets. Islamic culture doesn't see individuals, & Western culture does (my opinion).

Yah, we should tolerate Islamic culture in Islamic countries. We don't need to go meddling in countries that aren't asking for our help nor intervention. I think we should continue to accept students from those countries into our colleges & universities - with the proviso that those students then fall under US law & need to navigate US social standards - I assume that the various colleges & universities that accept Islamic students do some of this. If necessary, either Dept. of State or Homeland Security should put some material together as guidance for Islamic (& any other) students who might need the information.

So - once Islamics are on US soil & interacting with US citizens, they do & should fall under US law. I think it's helpful to bring those students & visitors & diplomatic & business & military people here - to see a different model & see that it can work. Maybe they'll take some ideas home with them.

 

Piffle. Not true - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_Nobel_laureates

Even disregarding the Peace Prize, there are still 5 laureates there, even if some are not strictly speaking Arabic.

 

I mean that if after the Romans fell, if Europe took on Islam, then Europe would be basically the same as how Islamic countries are now. Innovation, free will, and advancement in technology and livelihood is powered by a Christian majority entity who holds Christian values important.

 

It's kind of amazing how many people think the entire world view is the same as theirs. It's like they have never experienced anything outside their small world.
No clue that there are many different cultures and ideas.
And those that think the rest of the world sees the world the same as them, will argue then about subjective things as if how they perceive something is the only way anyone should perceive it.

Most are binary thinkers, and most fall in the RW of politics and are ingrained in a religion.

 

There's a height gene?
Do you know the heights of mankind has been to get taller with most subsequent generation? Do to healthier living, perhaps.

Says who? You?

 

And it's because there has been more and more access to better nutrition. However, there is a cap to this. Height is determined mainly by genes. If you look at the Pygmies, you can give them all the nutrients in the world but they will still be very short.

 

Yah. There was a time when Islam looked like the coming thing in the World. They conquered all around the Mediterranean, stayed in the Iberian Peninsula for near 800 years, did excellent work in translating the Greek & Latin classics, science, optics, math, astronomy, agriculture, traded in spices, coffee, tobacco (?). & then they seemed to go to sleep.

Yes, their culture seems to have been very pragmatic - maybe too much so. One theory I've read is that they froze their theology - which was (in practice) more about right practice than right thinking. That is, as long as you observed the forms & drew no attention to yourself, you could think what you wanted to. That freeze seems to have spread to their science & math & astronomy & tech & engineering & politics. Needless to say, they've not undergone what we'd recognize as a Reformation on the model of Martin Luther.

 

Exactly---that goes double for Social Justice Warriors who preach about "Islamophobia" here in their college safe zones---yet would never dare set foot in actual intolerant Muslim lands like Yemen.

 

You remind me of those people who collect dangerous snakes in their homes.

When any of the mambas, cobras and taipans eventually escape and bite their wife or kids, we can only say "Told you so!"

 

no, we just drop firebombs on people and nuke them.

 

Pakistan and Turkey are not Arab countries.

In fact, residents of either would probably be highly offended at the suggestion they are.

- - - Updated - - -

Against enemy nations that attacked us first and after formal declarations of war.

 

You damn betchum, Red Ryder!

 

At 900 CE of course America ... exist[ed]. It simply wasn't the US that we've grown to know & love since, say 1898 CE, when the US began to create a transoceanic economic empire. Instead, it was the Maya & Aztec & Inca Empires, with lots of subject & independent tribes - whole cultures, in fact.

Yah, Western Civilization is more open to other cultures than Islamic cultures - because Islamic cultures (if devout) are convinced that they have the sole true religion in their grasp, & on their side. A more aggressive Christianity used to believe similarly about itself.

I don't know that growing markets is the hallmark of a superior civilization. Perhaps of capitalism, but that isn't the topic here. Enabling people to reach their fullest potential sounds more like it. & if the US or the West in general were working towards that goal, I think that would be an excellent thing. But given the political nature of human striving, I don't think that's what we're working toward - or @ least, not whole-heartedly. But it's a noble & worthwhile goal, I'll grant you that.

Are Blue-Collar middle class workers then the endpoint of Western Civilization? It's a thought, I suppose. I would have imagined that universal education & suffrage were more to the point for the culmination of a species, but go figure.

 

Oh that's an interesting point. Ironically, like Judaism, the Islamic faith is de-centralized, meaning that it didn't get as powerful and systemically corrupt as Catholic Christianity so didn't go bad enough to spurn a liberal rebellion.
Nonetheless, unlike Judaism, Islam was the faith of Empire in the Middle East and so came under little theological challenge.

 

But maybe not. Arabic music sounds a whole more like Western music than it did fifty years ago. As you point out below, well-tempering has spread to non-Western cultures. And the Chinese in particular have mastered Western instruments and techniques. There is a reason for that. Western music is better. The Chinese have not adopted Western ingredients and techniques for cooking however. The reason is similar: Chinese cuisine is better.

I am familiar with Arabic music from short-wave listening I did when I was young. The fidelity wasn't the best but I became familiar with Arabic musicality. I googled Arabic music just recently and listened to what is now popular. The Arabic qualities are still there, but much more muted in favor of a more Western sound.

Of course you do. Culture is learned. That is what culture is, traditional wisdom and understanding handed down from generation to generation. One just learns a lot more about what it is to be human in Western cultures than in Arabic ones, just as one can learn a whole lot about most subjects from English texts rather than Arabic ones.

Thanks for the link. It looks interesting and I will read more thoroughly when I have the time.

If it is more expressive than it is better at expression. Sure, you can express emotion with other tunings. Just not as well.

And Loma culture is quite stunted compared to Western and I dare say Arabic cultures.

Of course. Culture is learned. I recognize that South Asians have states of mind that are inaccessible to Westerners. (Which is why I am critical of Westerners who dabble in Hinduism and Buddhism). It is interesting to note that the best and brightest of the South Asians, as well as the best and the brightest of the Chinese (but not the Japanese) enthusiastically adopt Western culture in preference to their own when given the chance.

There is a reason for that.

So much the worse for other cultures.

The straw man you erected, that non-Western music fails to convey emotion to its listeners is indeed nonsense.

But my claim that Western music has discovered techniques is still quite intact. Why did Western music universally adopt well-tempering. Why are non-Western cultures adopting well tempering. Because it is a better way to make music.



*Shrug*. See the bit on beer below. There may be certain technical standards that are a minimum condition for being "good" -- it's hard to be considered good if you are off-key or slurring your words -- but they do not constitute an objective standard for rating music. Technical complexity may be impressive, but does not necessarily yield a quality song. Indeed, most "experimental" music is often mind-bogglingly complex -- and for that reason, is often unlistenable.

In the end, I can tell you why I like certain pieces of music. Maybe my reasons for liking it are shared by millions of other people, which is why it is popular. But there are also millions of people for whom that song is a waste of time.

For instance, there's a guitar solo by Prince that I think is a virtuoso piece of performed music, both for its emotional content and its technical wizardry. But there are plenty of people who get nothing out of it.

Similarly, rap music speaks strongly to some people and completely turns off other people.

What ends up being considered "good" is really a matter of consensus, rather than objective measurability.



That's like saying a book isn't creative, because it's only good insofar as it fits its intended use. Yes, most software at base is functional, just like non-fiction books are mostly functional. But the process of writing it is a creative one, just like some non-fiction books can be dry and some can be spell-binding.

My focus as a programmer is front-end interfaces and functionality. So I'm using code to create experiences. There is creativity in the interface design and functioning. There is creativity in the code design and architecture to achieve that purpose with elegance and simplicity. Just like all books use the same words, but some are lyrical and some are nearly unreadable.



But the specific "taste" you are cultivating is not some universal, objective value. It is something you are trained in, by your specific culture. Which is why Japanese beer is distinctly different from African beer, which is distinctly different from German beer. Is one "better" than the other? It depends on your taste.



Agreed, but my point is that you still do not have an objective framework for judging the "best" beer. Any assessment of what is "best" is purely subjective. There may be some necessary conditions to even be in the running for the label, but the actual judgement involves subjective assessments that render any claim that a given beer is objectively "best" absurd.



As noted above, that doesn't seem to actually matter very much. Never mind that well-temperament isn't exactly a state secret: it can and has spread to other cultures, who can use the exact same technical tools in their own type of music. Temperament is a tool, not a culture-specific feature. Just like musical tools from other cultures have spread to the West and been incorporated in our music.[/QUOTE]

 

Apparently the latest thinking is more along the lines of gene switching. (In a very very simplified form, limited by my very limited understanding) We have genetic information to grow taller or shorter than our parents, and to some degree these genes are switched on or off by environmental factors as we grow. People that lift very heavy when too young will be shorter, because the body says "it will be less energy to lift this great weight a shorter distance, so stop growing upward and concentrate on muscle mass instead"

 

Quote Originally Posted by Sampson Simpon View Post

So, you have nothing to refute my claim, just spout false statements with nothing to back it up. So, you deny that the CIA helped overthrow the Shah?

The CIA overthrew PM Mossadegh, & installed the Shah instead. See

All the Shah's men : an American coup and the roots of Middle East terror [book] / Stephen Kinzer. 955.053 Kinz

Subjects
• Mosaddeq, Mohammad, -- 1880-1967.
• Iran -- Politics and government -- 1941-1979.
• United States -- Relations -- Iran.
• Iran -- Relations -- United States.

Notes
• Good evening, Mr. Roosevelt -- Curse this fate -- The last drop of the nation's blood -- A wave of oil -- His master's orders -- Unseen enemies everywhere -- You do not know how evil they are -- An immensely shrewd old man -- Block headed British -- Pull up your socks and get going -- I knew it! : they love me! -- Purring like a giant cat.

Length xiii, 258 p., [8] p. of plates :

Good, war on the cheap for Prex Eisenhower. Incredible naiveté from the CinC, CIA, State Dept. (the Dulles bros.) Kermit Roosevelt, the CIA slipped the leash. Prex Truman, approached by the British, who wanted to renege on their agreement with Iran (to train Iranians to run the petroleum wells & related, & refineries; & to divvy up the profits more equitably with Iran), told them it was their internal affair, & he didn't want to intervene in Iran, a sovereign nation with a freely elected PM. Next they approached Prex-elect Eisenhower, & recast the argument as defending Iran against Communism. Ike swallowed the bait, & here we are.

 

Getting rid of Mossadegh was the best thing for Iran than the alternative. They should thank the U.S. profusely for saving them from a far worse fate than the Shah. Mossadegh would have been nothing but a stooge for the Tudeh commies and a Soviet satellite. The Tudeh would have murdered over 30% of the population at the least in a Maoist style purge.

It's their own fault as a people and culture that the Shah was the much better choice, not the CIA or Eisenhower's. Same goes for most of the ME states, where the dictators on the whole were actually more moderate comparatively than the majority of their populations, composed of dumb, violent, and brutal savages for the most part.

 

Of course cultural differences do. How could they not? Environment shapes evolution and culture is a major part of the environment of humans for quite a while now.

Humans started from the gene pool, but allele frequency immediately began to diverge as humans spread geographically, adapting to the environment and adapting to the culture that sprang up.

 

It seems multiple genes are in play.

Human height is a quantitative, or metric, trait, i.e., a characteristic that is measured in quantity, and is controlled by multiple genes and environmental factors. Many studies have estimated the heritability of human height.

 

I am a Muslim; but it is only for the Religion; not the culture or civilization. Islam the religion is often in conflict with the "civilization" associated with it; from the very beginning with the Umayyads and Abbasids and various other dynasties and civilizations. Western culture may very well be "superior" to Arabic culture. It is self-evident that Western civilization is ascendant; powerful in every way to the Muslims and other third world civilizations. But if you look through the lens of Religion; Religion is always about the underdog resisting the powerful, glorious civilizations. Just read the Bible and you see that the often weak and inferior nation of Israel is pitted against powerful civilizations of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greeks, and Romans. But the powerful superior civilizations are not on the side of God; that's the point. It is not enough to prove that Western civilization is superior; in order to convince Muslims you have to likewise prove that Western civilization is morally good and on the side of God.