Abortion = Murder

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Johnathon Jaskson, Mar 6, 2017.

  1. kgeiger002

    kgeiger002 Active Member Past Donor

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    A radio personality made quite a good point today which I decided to share...

    How is it a person can be thrown in jail for causing harm to a Bald Eagle's eggs but no such consequences exist with abortion?

    Isn't that in itself quite ironic?
     
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  2. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Why?

    An eagle is an animal. A protected species of animal.

    An abortion is a legal medical procedure.


    ...and please, the Old Eagle Argument is Really Old and has no bearing on the right of women to their own bodies.
     
  3. kgeiger002

    kgeiger002 Active Member Past Donor

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    Whatever you say. I think this "Old" argument is quite telling and interesting to say the least. It's getting a little hot in here don't ya think?
     
  4. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    When humanity gets as endangered as the bald eagle I will agree with you

    Otherwise please remember apples are not oranges
     
  5. kgeiger002

    kgeiger002 Active Member Past Donor

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    The Bald eagle was taken off the endangered list 10 years ago.
     
  6. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Are there as many bald eagles as there are humans?

    BTW When humans start to lay eggs we can happily fine people who destroy them after all an egg is independent and does not parasite on a host
     
  7. kgeiger002

    kgeiger002 Active Member Past Donor

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    Holy Crap! You have really been indoctrinated. A Parasite? Interesting word choice. Just Wow (how sad). Thank God (for you) that your mom kept your parasitic self in her womb.

    I'm done. Enjoy your life!
     
  8. Zeffy

    Zeffy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, it is not ironic. For one, eagles were endangered until relatively recently. Humans, unfortunately, are not.

    For another, preventing a woman from aborting is a violation of her right to security of the person.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
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  9. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    It fulfills all the criteria for parasite. Albeit an often wanted one.
     
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  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    What is it ""telling"" you ? Why is it interesting? An eagle being a protected animal has nothing to do with the rights of women.

    Why are you getting hot?
     
  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    So don't you feel silly brining up that Really Old Anti-Choice Argument?:)
     
  12. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Oh, for pete's sake, look up the word parasite. Scientifically it's not a slur , it's a fact. IF something uses another something's body to sustain it's life , it's a parasite.
     
  13. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Since we've already strayed into eagles I will post this again.....maybe some "Pro-LIFER" can defend it somehow:



    You: ""Pro-life priority is the baby""


    No, it isn't. In Minnesota the Republicans do NOT want state workers to get 6 weeks off for maternity leave.

    The first six weeks are some of the most important for BABIES and the Anti-Choice faction doesn't care.
     
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  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The argument here is that humans are scarce like Bald Eagles (unlike cows which we eat) so abortion (representing the potential that a human might be created) should be treated the same as killing an already created Bald Eagle.

    The first problem is that the radio dude is comparing something that exists (A living Bald Eagle) to something that does not. A living human does not necessarily exist at all stages of pregnancy - particularly not in the early stages such as the "Zygote" for example.

    The second is that the potential human is more like the Cow in relation to a species needing protection to maintain their numbers.

    A silly argument (and implied fallacy - assumed premise) through and through.
     
  15. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course they do. Which is why pro-life folks call a zygote a "human being" because they then can say abortion is murder and compare abortion with the Nazi holocaust, as one fellow did in this thread.

    But it is not an argument against abortion. It is semantics.



    Now this is an actual argument not based on semantic definitions.

    You agree that the baby becomes a human being at some point after conception, and reference a viable birth at 21 weeks as evidence. But then you say the "baby" must be given the benefit of the doubt and declared a human (being) at conception.

    The same argument could be made about a baby born at 9 months. But if we agree that a zygote is not yet a human being, then your argument logically falls apart. Pro-lifers could make the same argument and say that because the point is unknown, we give the mother the benefit of the doubt and say that point is at birth. The fact that it may be difficult to pinpoint a precise date we identify it as a human being doesn't mean that we cannot make a reasonable estimate of that date.

    Here you seem to making the potentiality argument. Because a zygote has the potential of becoming a human being if certain conditions occur, if should have the same rights as a developed human being. But you could say the same thing for sperm or an egg. And we don't even give immature born human beings the same rights as a developed human being.

    Why should a viable zygote have superior rights to the mother, a fully developed human being?
     
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  16. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Abortion is not Murder, as you can only commit Murder against a legally recognized Person and a Zygote/Embryo/Fetus is NOT a person under the law.

    Nevermind the fact that even God in the Bible sanctioned forced Abortion as an acceptable punishment against women. This means that the God of the Bible did not view an unborn Zygote/Embryo/Fetus as a person worthy of rights.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  17. The Bear

    The Bear Well-Known Member

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    They want to ban after 20 weeks because of advances in medical technology that has resulted in premature births being viable at less than 24 weeks and not because they are anti abortion .
     
  18. The Bear

    The Bear Well-Known Member

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    Something to consider is if the anti abortionists get their way and makes it illegal,what will they do if a woman aborts a child,and how will they prove it was not a natural abortion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
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  19. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    No, there is no reason to keep alive a fetus that hasn't fully formed yet. And "technology" hasn't made fetuses grow faster...

    Yes, there have been exceptions and a fetus survived at 21 weeks,,,,with INTENSIVE hospital care and THOUSANDS of dollars ...
     
  20. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    GOOD POINT! They can't. They would want every woman who had a natural miscarriage to be thrown in jail and charged with abortion, publically examined for no reason because doctors can't tell the difference...

    There is NO way to suspect, or investigate, a charge of abortion ......and woman do not stop having abortions because they're illegal.



    The only reason some "people" want abortion made illegal is simply to make women's lives harder, a despicable thing to do....
     
  21. Zeffy

    Zeffy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And that was 21 weeks, 5 days actual gestation, not LMP which is how pregnancies are typically dated. It would be 23 weeks and 5 days LMP, which is pretty close to 24 weeks.

    ETA: there are only two in history that survived that early, the other was 21 weeks and six days actual gestational age.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
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  22. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    You do not make a consistent argument. I wrote, and you repeated, that sometime between and including conception and 21 weeks, the baby becomes a person. If it is determined that is not a person at 30 hours (zygote stage), then the boundary becomes 30 hours to 21 weeks. At 9 months (9 months is longer than 21 weeks), it is unquestionably a person.

    A sperm by itself will not develop into a human. The same for an egg. Neither are considered as a human person. The fertilized egg will develop into a human. That differentiates the 3.

    I am addressing the argument from abortionists that functionality is the criteria for determining human status.

    Wrong question. The issue is when does it become a human person with rights. If it is not a person and has no rights, then there is no conflict of rights. If it is a person with rights, then the question is one of balancing rights of 2 people.
     
  23. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    A fetus is NOT a person with rights until it is born.

    IF a fetus was deemed a person with rights it would have the same RESTRICTIONS any other person with rights would have.

    NO person can use another person's body to sustain it's life without consent.
    YOU can't, I can't , the fetus can't, no one can.
     
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  24. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you get back to us when humans are an endangered species?
     
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  25. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Nope!

    The fertilized egg MAY develop into a human ASSUMING that nothing goes wrong that causes a miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy or some or other abnormality that would result in the fetus not surviving the pregnancy.
     
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