Funny how on a conservative website I was conversing with some folks about Hillary - they said she was such a warmonger that it was she who was going to resurrect the draft. Remember the incident where she was asked, will you require women to register with Selective Service (an inquirer noted that she had a daughter)? Hillary side stepped the question completely which led these folks (and, yes, me too) to believe she may have possible contemplated such plans.
[QUOTE="ArmySoldier]The draft is a horrible idea for the most basic rationale. Why would I want people in my squad, my platoon, who DON'T want to be there when I can have a 100% volunteer Army of soldiers who want to raise some hell with me![/QUOTE] This is precisely what military people have said all along. Nobody is more opposed to the draft than they are.
This is precisely what military people have said all along. Nobody is more opposed to the draft than they are.[/QUOTE] You are 100% correct. No one I know that I serve with want some punk who doesn't want to be here.
You are 100% correct. No one I know that I serve with want some punk who doesn't want to be here.[/QUOTE] Military life isn't for everyone. But most of those who volunteer (both male and female) do enjoy their time in it.
Military life isn't for everyone. But most of those who volunteer (both male and female) do enjoy their time in it.[/QUOTE] Haha yea it's definitely not for everyone. That's why I agree with your statement. The Army can be REALLY boring when in garrison. But you will travel, maybe not to the most "hip" destination. I got to go to Europe recently which was pretty sweet. But at the same time I was working 12 hour overnights with no internet or anything
No, only in an extreme national emergency should we have a draft. If you are too old to serve in the armed forces, at least you could be used to dig anti-tank ditches.
I don't even think that's needed. Why impose slavery and have a draft when America already has 350 million guns on the streets to defend ourselves? If something is so dangerous and we're under attack, well let's just say our enemy done messed up!
What happened to pwillie? He started this thread by making highly emotional arguments and then, when confronted with truths, backs away. Well how about it pw? Where are your answers to the questions posed to you??
But in 1973 the military brass, the SNCO's and NCO's opposed the All Volunteer Military (AVM) Conservatives and Republiocans opposed the AVM. Who did support it was the "New Left." They don't want to serve in war time or peace time. The military warned Congress that it would be ending a over two hundred years American tradition of the Citizen Soldier and it would become expensive. Facts are it's gotten way too expensive and what nobody saw was that the AVM would become a married military that would make it even more expensive while the political left would use it for social engineering. Those liberals who advocated for the AVM back during the 1970's don't want to pay for the AVM today. Also liberals look at citizenship differently than conservatives. Before 1973 serving in the military was part of achieving full citizenship. It was being a patriot, duty to country and you were expected to serve if called upon. Before 1973 serving in the U.S. military was never looked upon as being a job as many today look at it being today. No one enlisted for the pay, the VA benefits. It was being a citizen soldier. Duty to the country. America has only had three war time drafts, the American Civil War, WW l and WW ll. America's first peace time draft was in 1940 - 1941. America's second peace time draft was during the Cold War (1950 - 1973.) My generation from (1965 to 1973) 10 million served in uniform either on active duty or in the reserves or the Guard. That's roughly 45% of the males who were of military age. Only 2.5 million would actually serve "in-country" in the RVN. I was a citizen soldier just like my father was. He enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1942 and I enlisted in the Marine Corps in December of 1968. I volunteered because of duty to country, it was expected I serve and I wanted to fill my fathers boon dockers. Among men, veteran status is highly related to age PRINCETON, NJ -- On this Veterans Day 2012, about 13% of U.S. adults overall are veterans, including 24% of men and 2% of women. Veteran status among men is highly related to age, moving above the majority level for those aged 65 and older. By contrast, 12% of men aged 25 to 34 are veterans. Just an excerpt and it's just one persons opinion, not mine per se.
As I wrote before, in those days if you got drafted when he came back home your job was waiting for you. Today you have to compete with women and others who were not drafted for that same job. The result is homelessness and poverty for those vets. And contrary to your mythic beliefs, CONSERVATIVE Barry Goldwater was opposed to the draft as were principled libertarians and conservatives. They knew that a draft needlessly expands intrusive government, promotes war, generates profits for war profiteers, and creates divisiveness in society. Society is divided enough already. We do not need anything that promotes more division, hate, and domestic troubles. Therefore, there is no need for a draft.
Goldwater was referring to liberals using the military for PC social engineering like ""McNamara's Moron Corps." Cat-5's mostly blacks who were to dumb to be drafted but would be allowed to enlist bumping a Cat-1, Cat-2 or Cat-3 from enlisting. The article below is from the N.Y. Times, 1964. "McNamara's Moron Corps" aka was "Project 100.000" wasn't initiated until October of 1966 two years later after the N.Y. Times article was first published in Sept. of 1964. Every time liberals have used the U.S. military for social engineering, soldiers, Marines, sailors and airmen bleed and die in the name of political correctness. I suppose we can also add rape today or naked female Marines photos on thew internet. There are more than a few thousand names on the Vietnam War Memorial Wall because of allowing morons to serve. They sure kept the Navy and Marine Corps brigs and Army stockades full and most of the attempted mutinies, fragings and racial riots during the late 1960's and especially the early 70's can be traced back to "McNamara's Moron Corps."
I recommend that you read Goldwater's Conscience of a Conservative which I read over 45 years ago. In it, he explicitly condemned the draft as violating freedom. Here is proof of Mr Conservative's views: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/2009/01/17/what-conservatives-think-about-the-draft/ '' Here’s what Goldwater had to say about the liberal and conservative views of compulsory military (or civil) service: There should no longer be any confusion about the liberal, radical and conservative positions on the draft. Liberals favor it, but either want to make it random in its selection or extend it to social as well as military service. Radicals want to end it or turn it to social service. They are not against compulsion. They are just against the fact, it seems to me, that the compulsion in this case is being used as part of an effort against their current heroes, the Viet Cong. Conservatives want to end the draft–period. They do not want to extend it to any other form of service. …''
Only one thing that many forget, back in 1967 the liberal base of the Democrat party would start fleeing from the Democrat party and seeking refuge under the GOP tent when the radical "New Left" came slithering into the Democrat party in the early 1970's. The liberals of the 1950's and 60's would become the neoconservatives (neo-cons) of the 80's and through today. They are still liberals and like all liberals they like nation building and if required using the U.S. military for nation building. But here was the thinking of the conservatives during the 1960's, the Democrats got America into a shooting war in Southeast Asia and then backed stabbed the American soldier and didn't have the will to win the war. Barry Goldwater was Air Force all the way. He retired as a Maj. General in the USAFR. His dream was always bombers. He did end up flying B-47's during the mid 1950's. I can't say for sure if Barry Goldwater thinking was aligned with Gen. Curtis LeMey thinking, but most SAC pilots were from 1947 to the late 1970's. The Army has Patton, the Navy has Halsey, the Marines has Chesty Puller and the Air Force has Curtis LeMey. Curtis LeMey thinking was that America didn't need a large army which means no draft needed and didn't need a large navy. That the U.S. Air Force could win all of America's wars by bombing our enemies back into the stone age with thousands of big high altitude bombers.
But here was the thinking of the conservatives during the 1960's, the Democrats got America into a shooting war in Southeast Asia and then backed stabbed the American soldier and didn't have the will to win the war. I have previously posted links which prove Republican Eisenhower got us started in that war. Just the same, Goldwater opposed the draft on conservative principles. Now, let's get back to the issue of the harm that would be caused to society by bringing back the draft. Can you please address the points I made above. And tell willie to do the same so that we may conclude the discussion.
That has been debunked. It's nothing more than liberal revisionist history. Maybe Perotista will come along and chime in since he knows more than most when it comes to President Eisenhower and also served in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War than most and knows what really was going on in Laos which was kept a secret until the early 1970's. President Eisenhower being a five star general and an expert at military strategy studied the mistakes the French made during the French Indochina War. Befor 1954 you had French Indochina. After the French brought out their standard issued white flags and surrendered to Uncle Ho Cambodia and Laos became two sovereign nations and Vietnam became two sovereign nations divided at the 17th parallel. Communist North Vietnam north of the 17th parallel and "corrupt" South Vietnam (RVN) south of the 17th parallel. Why was Vietnam divided at the 17th parallel ? Anyone who served up in I-Corps and was up north near the DMZ noticed that any invasion from the north across the DMZ could be stopped. North Vietnam knew this so to supply the VC in the south would be accomplished by crossing into Laos and using a road and trail system through Laos and Cambodia known as the Ho Chi Minh Trail. President Eisenhower strategy of stopping communist expansion in Southeast Asia was denying North Vietnam access to the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos. On January 20th, 1961 outgoing President Eisenhower warned incoming President Kennedy not to get involved with the Diem regime in the RVN, that it was to corrupt. And if you want to make a stand against communist expansion in Southeast Asia, don't do it at the 17th parallel but it has to be done in Laos. JFK who rarely listened to his elders thinking he was smarter because he wen to Harvard and who surrounded himself with his Harvard buddies who back in the day were called "the young and brightest" who in the endgame ended up not being so bright ignored Eisenhower's warnings and his military advisers and JFK being a 1950's and 60's liberal. (Today JFK would be called a neo-con) decided to make his stand at the 17th parallel and go with regime change in South Vietnam. So JFK signed off on the CIA backed military coups that backed fired when President Diem was murdered by ARVN troops and JFK realized that from that day South Vietnam became America's problem, America owned Vietnam from that day on. The world watched...what will JFK do ? If SEATO fails, NATO will likely fail. Three weeks later JFK would meet the same fate as President Diem in Dallas Texas. What will LBJ do ??? The rest is history. The Vietnam War could have been won and brought to an end three times. 1965 if LBJ hadn't micromanaged the air war over North Vietnam. (The National Security Act of 1947 gave civilian politicians to much control over the military especially during war time.) 1968 if Walter Cronkite hadn't gone on the air lying to the American people about the Tet Offensive of 68 where the NVA and VC were defeated and got their butts beaten to a bloody red. (This is when the support for the Vietnam War in America made an about face.) (It's also when Gen. Giap said that the American soldier couldn't be defeated on the battlefield.) 1969 if President Nixon hadn't inherited LBJ's failed policies in Vietnam.
In my opinion, this generation has changed. So has public opinion about the military and the recruitment process. The military has people pouring into it. We have such tight standards now it's tough to get in.
Just to prove a point again, it was Eisenhower who got the USA into Vietnam: http://thevietnamwar.info/us-presidents-during-the-vietnam-war/ Any other claim is a blatant lie. ------------- Since neither willie nor anyone else addresses the issue of the unfairness of the draft and its highly destructive consequences, I will assume that they are conceding to the TRUTHS that I wrote about those harms. Thank you for your concessions.
Not really. Ike only sent a limited number of advisors, never more than 900 among all branches. They were fulfilling the real role of advisors back then. Training and equipping the South Vietnamese troops, and giving indirect aid not on the battlefield (intelligence, recon, etc). JFK expanded that a bit, providing limited combat support but the numbers when he was in charge never went beyond 16,000. It was LBJ that exploded the US role and presence in Vietnam, ultimately swelling the ranks to over half a million. And we have provided numbers under 1,000 many times, and it never got us involved in any wars. We got involved in the war because of LBJ and nobody else. Today we are actually much more likely to do the reverse, instead of sending over advisors we bring the best and brightest of another country to the US and give them training over here. I lost count of the numbers of countries soldiers I saw being trained at Fort Bliss. Japan, South Korea, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Panama, Israel, Germany, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Philippines, the list simply goes on and on and on.
100% correct. Ike only sent a few people to HELP other people fight. LBJ turned it into the giant war it was. Good post.
I mostly concur. What higher standards there are today is academic and criminal records. The physical standards are the same today as they were in 1950. During WW ll flat feet would get you rejected for military service. That changed during the 1950's. Bone spurs like what got Donald Trump rejected and being given a 1-Y draft medical deferment still stands today. 3/4 of the wannabes are rejected today from enlisting mostly because they are cream puffs, Pillsbury Dough Boys who are in shitty physical shape. It's a generation thing. I was looking at my high school year books (64-68 ) a high school with over a 2,000 student body. Maybe four males who would be considered border line obese about the same number for girls. By the time you graduated high school just about every male could pass the Army's PFT. Why ? President Eisenhower concerns and JFK who took action. The endgame being, the last six years attending school, one hour of physical education class one hour every day five days per week. After school you were outside until dinner time involved in some kind of physical activity. My first two years in high school before I bought my first car in cash (1956 Chevy Bel-Air coup) I walked 3 miles to and from school every school day. Today they take school buses. Both the Army and Marine Corps have dumbed down the PFT four or five times since the end of WW ll. The standards for the PFT were higher in the past than they are today. When I served in the Corps the PFT consisted of five events, push-ups, pull-ups (palms out, not chin-up that are palms in), squat thrust, sit-ups and the 3 mile run. Today the Marine Corps PFT only consist of three events.
Your source are revisionist activist. Even others who have visited the site question the credibility and accuracy. To many red flags. https://www.reddit.com/r/VietnamWar/comments/5fe5s3/thevietnamwarinfo_how_credible_is_this_site/ Remember, the Kennedy klan established a well oiled machine to protect the JFK legacy. With the passing of Sen. Teddy Kennedy that machine is getting rusty. In the past 16 years the CIA has declassified so much classified information on the Vietnam War in particular the JFK administration. The vast majority haven't made it into the history books yet. Have fun, you'll be more than surprised what you will learn. -> https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/
