Getting Healthcare Right

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by spiritgide, Mar 23, 2017.

  1. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    We're all ultimately destined for that long dirt nap. The Hippocratic oath isn't meant to prolong that process at all costs, but rather to keep doctors from going down immoral paths.

    Is socialized medicine moral or immoral? That is why I brought up the social aspect of the therapeutic nihilism bit. At the far end of the scale, you are talking about forcing doctors to provide medical care to everybody, no matter their ability to pay. On the other end of that scale is only caring for those who have the ability to pay cash money on the barrel head.

    I don't think there is a middle ground there. Somebody has to pay because doctors get netflix bills just like everybody else. If you don't pay doctors, they eventually end up on the street homeless and dying of starvation, yes?

    If doctors charge what the market will bear, you end up with other people dying on the street.

    So we end up discussing the morality of socialized medicine, but with the idea that doctors do have to be paid for their services. That takes the hippocratic oath out of the discussion because we don't want doctors providing their services on an empty belly in the middle of the sidewalk on a bloody piece of cardboard right up until they die.

    Yes? So it's not about paying them, but rather... how much?

    Can we agree that it's about paying them?
     
  2. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Wow, your premise is so fundamentally flawed...how do I begin?

    This could only apply if you think visiting a doctor alone applies as therapeutic nihilism. Not all doctor visits are for curing, they are for prevention too, and prevention does not necessarily involve dispensing medicine.

    This is hyperbole at maximum volume! Please show me anywhere in the world where educated doctors are homeless and hungry? It DOES NOT EXIST!

    But you are making the common mistake of so many who cannot see the forest through the trees. It is not about one individual doctor's practice, but millions of practices across the country, in ADDITION to the hospital systems, pharmaceutical industry, and ancillary industries. It is about seriously determining how much is too much that anyone component in this system charges for what could be a fair price.

    "Doctors charging what the market will bear (sic)"??? Really? Are you serious?

    As I have repeated dozens of times on these forums, the allusion held by many who oppose socialized medicine, that medicine can be treated as any other service commodity is ridiculous beyond compare. Unlike dentistry, which is limited to just one part of the body and whose worst case treatment is complete replacement of all your teeth, general medicine is dealing with diseases or injuries that affect multiple organs and systems. The average patient has neither the education, will, or time to explore all options based on a cost analysis, therefore rendering competition a moot motivator.

    Now, regardless of what one may think of CMS, the folks who administer Medicare and Medicaid, they have for years collected tons of data on health care costs, education, and practices, and they know quite well what is considered a fair cost for most given services. The providers who refuse to participate in Medicare / Medicaid do so because money is their main factor. It's their choice. If most people could understand that, they would be mad at the doctors, not CMS. However, people seem to want to have their cake and eat it too.

    This notion you have of socialized medicine would starve doctors is ridiculous beyond belief. You've jumped the shark on that one!
     
  3. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Begin by realizing that I think the same thing about your idea?

    curing and prevention is all much of a muchness.

    well, you have your idea. Okay...

    Quite serious.

    Tough for the patient then.

    Look, you can't tell doctors that they can't avail themselves of the free market. It's completely up to them whether they want to work for the government or just hang their shingle out with a message that says "Bring lots of money!". Everybody else charges what the market will bear, so they can too.


    It was an extreme example, but necessary to get you to concede that this isn't good. So now all we have to do is consider how much they get paid, and who gets to decide how much.

    The market? Or politician Bob? If you say politician Bob, then you forfeit your right to charge what the market can bear for your services.
     
  4. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    How do other countries handle regulations and litigation? I expect they are handled as Medicare handles them.

    You're trying to reinvent the wheel. Other developed countries have equivalent healthcare and half the per capita cost that we have. We should just study the systems of the best of those countries and then design one modeled after theirs.
     
  5. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Like I said before, as long as you realize that YOU could be that patient in the future.

    Out of curiosity, how old are you?
     
  6. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    One emergency operation on my eye to reattach my retina plus two follow up operations and five checkups, plus one check up at my ophthalmologist within 11 months. I didn't put my hand in my pocket once. I was under the care of one of the best Vitreoretinal Surgeons in Australia at the best eye hospital in Australia. I don't have private health insurance.

    The morning after the first operation (I had an over night stay in the eye hospital) I was being discharged. I felt a throb behind my eye coming on. I asked the nurse discharging me if I could have a couple of Panadols (a brand of analgesic). She gave me two to take straight away and another two, without asking, for my 120 klms train trip home.

    Damn good service.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
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  7. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    He/she pays taxes like everyone else, so the subsidising is spread around.
     
  8. Media_Truth

    Media_Truth Well-Known Member

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    I saw a poll on this forum, that strongly supported a single payer system. I believe it was almost 80%. The original intent of the ACA was to provide Single-Payer, but the Insurance lobby was too strong, and it was DOA. Prior to ACA, the poor were treated through Subsidized Emergency Room Care, and we saw what that did to premiums for 20-30 years. Any non Single-Payer system will be too costly, with too many hands in the kitty.
     
  9. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    he/she pays progressive tax rates, so everyone paying a lower rate is subsidized by everyone paying a higher rate.
    Also, he/she lives in a system with cost controls placed on the physicians, so he/she is being subsidized by them.
    But you knew that.
     
  10. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    he he he, you said,"Non sequitur."
    Now i know this is hard for you to accept, but the rest of society does not owe you crap.
    Your desires to be subsidized by everyone that pays higher tax rates than you, and every physician that will be forced to accept crap reimbursements is obvious.
     
  11. margot3

    margot3 Active Member

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    Good article.. however the writer needs a better understanding of Medical mal insurance and litigation.
     
  12. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Why are you trying to tell us how our system works?

    Yes there is some restriction of services but far far less than a user pays system
     
  13. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A suggestion along those lines
    Think about the SR71 Blackbird spy plane, a totally revolutionary and successful aircraft. Unlike most, it was not a design dictated by government. Instead, the objectives and purpose of the project were given to engineers and technical people such as test pilots with practical expertise, in the famous Skunkworks team, sort of a think-tank design project. They came up with the answers to how those objectives could be reached, and created something that exceeded all expectations. Retired from service now- the plane still holds the worlds records for speed, altitude and a host of other things. Total success, done by listening to those directly involved rather than political hacks.

    A Heath care plan could use a similar approach if it were to assemble a panel of professionals from the involved fields- Doctors, hospitals, insurance companies. Out line the objectives, and ask them to devise a system that would be comprehensive enough to accomplish them and work harmoniously. In other words- listen to the people who actually have to use the system, and let them figure out how to build it. Then limit the ability of congress to screw it up.

    Too practical an idea, congress would never go for it.
     
  14. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you aware that over 80% of hospitals are non profit ?

    Are you aware that there is a wide range of non profit insurance companies from which to choose ?

    Are you aware that non profit hospital and insurance companies do not deliver healthcare for a lower cost ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  15. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. And that model could be applied to education, crime, agriculture, and plenty of other subjects. It's called "socialism" and it works. (Actually, for the knee-jerk crowd, socialism utilizes this approach in the context of an overall worker-controlled economy.)
     
  16. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    How many pharmaceutical companies are non-profit? How many of the largest, major health insurance companies are non-profit?
     
  17. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    The most efficient system wouldn't be designed. It would be completely emergent with no external interference in exchanges between patients and care providers except where disputes arise between them, and those disputes would be resolved without reference to any kind of legislation. All regulations would be imposed and enforced by consumer demand and competition. There would be no IP monopoly grants allowing gouging by drug developers and no FDA to explode the cost of development.
     
  18. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    He's been programmed to blame the "rich" and to feel entitled to the products of their labor
     
  19. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There aren't any non profit pharmaceutical companies to my knowledge, but he was expressly talking about a $15 Tylenol, where we know the hospital paid probably $.06 per pill. This obviously isn't an issue where you can blame the pharmaceutical company, rather it is expressly about the hospital.

    You may be surprised to learn that most Blue Cross Blue Shields are non profit ( they are a separate company in every state). I don't have easy access to a percentage of the "largest, major health insurance companies" that are non profit, but they are surprisingly abundant. As a consumer however, it is not worth hunting down non profit insurance companies, because they aren't less expensive.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  20. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    But how would the people get their "free stuff"?
     
  21. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    They would have to steal it with their own two hands, or beg which is more dignified than stealing by proxy.
     
  22. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Yes, to cover uninsured losses due to gaps in healthcare legislation.


    Yes, I know. I worked for the Oregon BCBSO.


    Exactly. And these are all some of the reasons our healthcare costs are the highest.
     
  23. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, since you know that non profits don't lower the cost, it is hard to argue that a profit motive is driving the $15 cost of a Tylenol in the hospital.

    In truth, this issue is FAR more complex than meets the eye. While I am not saying that costs aren't out of control, I do recognize that the overly simplistic analysis of a $15 Tylenol is completely useless. You aren't paying $15 for a Tylenol, you are paying $15 for the delivery of that Tylenol. Medication distribution in a hospital is very complex, and requires excessive security, quadruple checking that the right patient is getting the right product, and many hands are involved in that process all the way up until the point that it is actually delivered to the patient. Saying that you are paying $15 for a Tylenol is like saying that you are paying $100 for a squeeze of baby oil when getting a full body massage. You are paying for the service, NOT the product.

    On top of that, people aren't ACTUALLY paying $15. That is the figure billed to the insurance company, and the hospital is paid a fraction of that amount. An uninsured person would get that same bill and have sticker shock, but in reality, the hospital would be happy to get pennies on the dollar from that bill. They get almost no money from an uninsured person, and they will happily square up that debt for pennies on the dollar if the patient is willing to do so.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  24. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    And so I included the last line of my post, which you seem to ignore, where I said "these are all some of the reasons our healthcare costs are the highest."
     
  25. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was hoping that you would reply to the actual substance of what I said rather than aimless bickering. I should have known better.
     

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