Which is the Dumbest Excuse Zionists Use to Justify Israel's Palestinian Genocide?

then I'm a zionist although I object to the continuing annexation of palestinian land in the west bank. I believe the the palestinians deserve their own nation (non-militarized and with appropriate institutions like a functioning justice system), but I don't believe that Israel should just hand over the keys and walk out.

I also believe that the far right in Israel is just as nuts as the Islamist crazies on the other side.

OTOH, I don't believe in the "genocide" label that pro palestinians luv to throw around in an outrageous semantic false equivalency.

 

It's a war. Civilians die in war. "palestinians" decide to launch rockets from schools and hospitals. Of course civilians will die. Why do the "palestinians" feel they should launch rockets from civilian populated areas? They are the bottom feeders of terrorists.

 

If it was a war between two countries, I'd completely agree. However, Palestine isn't a country, it's two regions under Israeli control, which means those regions are part of Israel. And that means Israel is responsible for those civilians in the schools and hospitals that terrorists operate in.
If a gang of craze gunmen storm an Israeli hospital and then start sniping people out of the windows, the Israeli army wouldn't just bomb the hospital. They would consider all of the civilians in the hospital to be hostages, and they'd find a way to take out the gunmen. That should be the policy for dealing with Palestinian civilians and terrorists too. The Israeli army should be rescuing the civilians while killing the terrorists. The reason they don't do this, is because the Israeli government and army don't value Arab lives.
And that's why "Palestinian terrorists use human shields" is one of the dumbest excuses used to justify this genocide.

 

Then you might want to avoid the Zionist label, because the people who proudly wear it tend to want to keep the Palestinians in their prison.
I do agree that Israel shouldn't just free Palestine and then walk out. Israel should pay reparations.

Granted. Though it's worth remembering that Israel is a first world industrialized nation that should be held to much higher standards than a bunch of third world thugs who blow themselves up over a Mohammed cartoon.

Well I suppose instead of genocide, we can just call it "racist mass murder." That has a nicer ring to it, anyway.

 

but wait didn't you say that if you are support the existence of Israel you are a zionist?

What kind? Certainly not punative. For civil property I agree. Figure out the value of the land in whatever year they were thrown off it and allocate an average price of land, house, furniturre etc., calculate the compound interest on that value from from that year, and then divide it by the number of "claimants". That would be equitable since so many of the poor palestinians have been oppressed, manipulated and used by their arab brethren, it would be unfair for Israel to pay anything punative.

And they do. If they behaved like those thugs, there'd be nothing left of the palestinian people. That's the point.

And some would call it the mass murder of homicidal bigots, since gloryifying the deaths terrorists with kiddie playing cards and outrageous jew hating propaganda makes them all culpable either thru action or public consent and support.

Funny how ones perspective can be so full of hate and so repulsed by the hatred of their adversary. Ah well hypocrites and politics go hand in hand.

 

No, I said you are a Zionist if you're very pro-Israel.
Certain terms have connotations. One of the connotations of "Zionist" is that you support what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

I think that's fair enough. Punitive reparations might be good to discourage other countries from acting like Israel, but it shouldn't be a deal-breaker if the Palestinians are able to get everything else.

Israel is held to a slightly higher standard, and that has prevented them from completely wiping out the Palestinians. However, it shouldn't be a "slightly" higher standard. "Palestinian terrorists do it too!" shouldn't be a serious and common argument, and yet it is.

Call me crazy, but I generally believe that young children are unable to consent to certain things, such as being culpable in crime. So to say the children being killed are supporting homicidal bigots is a bit out there for me. Further more, we don't even know how many adults support the terrorists, or only support the terrorists because they're the lesser of two evils.
We're not talking about Israelis killing terrorists here. We're talking about Israelis killing Palestinians, and using the terrorists as an excuse.

"Both sides" need to work on a solution.

 

I support the belligerent military occupation of the territories given the stated hostile intent of the occupied government and the animus of the population, WITHOUT a compromise that assures Israel's security. If the palestinians can't compromise on a non-militarized state and the subject of contiguity then the Israelis are never going to trust the palestinians and other muslim countries to honor a piece of paper. Unlimited Right of return is also a non starter since so many of those 48 properties are parking lots, malls, schools, etc.

Avg farm back then didn't have running water or electricity, and weren't what one would call palatial. Say $10K in 1948 dollars and $20k in 67 dollars, including their share of existing infrastructure.

Considering the population explosion of the palestinian refugees who have increased their population by 800% in 70 years, your statement is bald faced hyperbole.

Oh, I agree killing the innocent is a crime, unless of course its war and the killing is unintentional. In warfare crap happens. If the parents as guardians of their children choose to act or consent to action or provide aid and comfort to those who perpetrate such action, unfortunately put their children in harm's way when the repurcussions of those supported actions come home to roost.

OTOH, I do agree that not enough Israelis killing or assaulting arabs is seriously prosecuted by the Israelis. You want to hold them to a higher measure than the palestinians and I agree. So tell me is this higher standard 100 % of the palestinian baseline or is it 1000% of the palestinian baseline you use to make your assessment?

got that right. gotta come from themselves in the end.

 

and destroy their food source.

 

Sorry you have not put the dumbest excuse, "that it is there land "given" to them by god".

 

It is a war. Israel is at war with terrorists in their land. I completely agree that the "palestinians" are committing genocide and Israel needs to act.

 

Delude yourself all you want Army soldier, Brand Israel is failing and the main reason for that is because the situation is seen as the opposite of what you imagine

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170330-the-failure-of-brand-israel/

 

Have you been to Israel and Jordan?

 

Yes, but it's not a war against a country. The Palestinian terrorists are domestic terrorists in Israel, and the Palestinian people are civilians whom Israel is responsible to protect.
If you think Israel has a right to kill all Palestinians just because some of them are terrorists, then you must also think the Nazis did the right thing. Unless racism and genocide are only okay when Jews do it, I guess.

 

Dammit! I can't believe I forgot that one!
*sighs*
So many dumb excuses, who can remember them all?

 

Your post demonstrates a rather profound lack of understanding of this conflict. The vast majority of palestinian terrorists are domestic terrorists in the palestinian territories, they aren't Israeli civilians. Call them terrorists or resistance fighters, the fact is that their tactics almost always include the death of civilians, both Israeli and palestinian. When Hamas or any PLO group conduct an attack they KNOW that retaliation is INEVITABLE and that retaliation will be DISPROPROTIONATE. they know this and actually welcome that retaliation to harden the hearts of those very same desperate, depressed, oppressed people.

 

The reason the population is so hostile is because Israel regularly commits war crimes against them. You can't constantly attack people and then cry about them being hostile when it comes time to let them run their own country. And you also can't just stop the attacks and say "So, we cool now?" Israel should be trying to win the Palestinians' trust over by setting them free and paying reparations.
Why is it Israel can be a militarized state, but Palestine can't be? These are the type of double-standards that too many people have accepted, thus making it easy for Israel to get away with pretty much anything.

If Israel really wanted peace, they would treat Arabs as good as it treats Jews. But they don't want peace, so that won't happen.

The population almost always goes up when people are living in terrible conditions.
This is also besides the point, which is that Israel is allowed to get away with far too much.

I think it's pretty clear that with the IDF, the killings are pretty damn intentional. And even if they're not, I don't think it's okay to blow up a school that terrorists are in and then just blame it on the fact that sometimes civilians get killed in war. When a bank robber is holding hostages, we don't blow up the bank. We do whatever we can to rescue the hostages, while keeping the robber from harming anyone outside the bank either.

I'd say it's completely on the Israelis, since they can end the war anytime, and many of the Palestinians see attacking Israel as the only way to end the blockade.

Oh, FFS.
Saying "both sides" are responsible for this is like saying science class should teach both evolution and creationism. You know, because "both sides" have scientific knowledge to offer.

 

Once again, Palestine is not a country. The term "Palestine" refers to two regions in Israel. So yes, the Palestinians should be treated as civilians living in Israel.
The rest of your post is just the same old line about how Israel doesn't have any responsibility to protect the Palestinians in Israel.

 

Once again your failure to accept political reality says it all.

 

Are you trying to say Palestine is a country?
Just because a lot of other countries recognize Palestine as a nation, that doesn't make it so. The political reality is that Israel owns and controls both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.
I can declare my house independent from America. That doesn't mean my house is actually its own country.

 

Your failure to acknowledge that BOTH sides AND the international community are culpable for the clustermuck and its continuation, is remarkable. this is a multi generational conflict. If Israel would have been left alone, the arabs would have continued to enjoy soveriegnty overy the west bank and gaza, but alas and alack, that was not to be because as long as Israel existed, there could be no peace. You might remember that political stance as it was and still is amongst many arab league members and of course certain palestinian factions.

The Israelis are just as culpable for the actions of various neo-zionist governments in attempting to fulfil its river to sea and screw gaza dream. Belligerent military occupation is humiliating and oppressive and that just breeds more hatred and resentment. Its a never ending cycle. And by the way, don't blame Israel for being militarily and economically too strong to achieve the liberation of all of historic palestine.

 

Actually it is well within the Convention's rules of war to bomb a school if the enemy is fighting from it, or using it as a weapons cache. Its considered a crime by the fighters, not the killers.

 

Ah yes, the "Other Arabs Attacked Israel" excuse. I'm surprised I forgot to list that one too.
No. The fact that other Arab countries attacked Israel does not give Israel the right to blockade the entire Gaza Strip or commit genocide against the Palestinians living there. The fact that some Palestinians attacked Jews also does not give them this right.
It's kind of funny. The same people who think it was wrong for America to put all Japanese-Americans into internment camps over the Pearl Harbor bombing will try to put the blame for the blockade on the Palestinians. If only those Palestinians knew better than to be Palestinians when those other Palestinians were engaging in terrorism.

I will agree that the international community is partly responsible for the conflict, especially America due to its worship of Israel. America should completely cut Israel off until it stops acting like the terrorist nation that is. Western Europe should also grow some stones and denounce Israel, but I guess most of those countries are still scared to death of being called Nazis.

And finally, saying "both sides" are responsible implies that both sides are preventing the war from ending, when it's actually just Israel. It implies that both sides started this war, when it's actually just Israel. And it implies both sides are fighting for their survival, when it's actually just Palestine.

Wouldn't being militarily and economically strong make it easier to liberate Palestine?

In a war between two countries, yes. But this is a war between the government and a bunch of freedom fighters.
And herein lies another problem. Israel and its defenders are treating the Palestinians like their own nation, when they actually don't have a nation. Palestinians live in Israel, yet they were never treated like true Israelis. Instead of saying there are Jewish-Israelis and Palestinian-Israelis, the way in America we have, say, Polish-Americans and Algerian-Americans, the view of Israelis is that the Jews are the only ones who can really be Israeli. Now normally I'd be fine with this, since I think every nation has a right to give it's own people a level of privilege in order to maintain the national population and culture. However, if you're not going to allow a minority that big to run its own historical region as its own country, then you have to give them all the rights that the majority has. Israel basically want to have it both ways. They want to treat the Palestinians like soldiers of Palestine, while not actually letting Palestine exist.

 

What exactly do you think the Israelis should do? simply retreat to the 67 line without any kind of assurances of their own security? That is simply stupid,.

You seem to forget that PLO is still dedicated to the liberation of all of historic palestine as is Hamas, despite their opposing internal political views. The PLO charter has never been officially amended, and the PA still hasn't produced its "constitution".

Get back to me when you have some sort of reasonable resolution to the massive injustices suffered by the palestinian people, inflicted by themselves, their allies and their enemies all.

Oh come on. this conflict started with the arab riots in the 20's was exacerbated by the british during the palestinian mandate - which sparked the civil war of 47 and ultimately resulted in al nakba in 48. How started it is rather moot. if you are referring to 67, you're right that Israel attacked first, but that was a preemptive strike before nasser could launch his own.

How does one go about that? How can israel simply divest itself when the institutions required for democratic governance don't properly exist in the territories, there isn't anyone of sufficient power to provide any security guarantees. You think the palestinians would accept a non-militarized autonomously governed territory with no control over its own air space? At this point I doubt it.

Ah, here's the problem. You don't seem to have a clue about the dynamics of this conflict. the palestinians are a nation - they were created by the UN when it endorsed the partition plan and subsequently recognized the palestinian people as the only multi-generational refugees in order to provide on going welfare to them because the first generation would neither accept citizenship in jordan (the only arab country to offer citizenship to west bank citizens at the time) nor would the other arab nations offer them citizenship. I do believe that the three generations of suffering of the palestinians have forged a nationalist identity that most of the world recognizes.

Now exactly what can the palestinians do to provide Israel with the security assurances it needs before it takes its boot off their throats?

 

No one has ever suggested that. Rather I have heard people saying they recognise how stupid they were to always accept Israel's cry for security. They have been offered it before - the 2002 one. However I would accept that there would be need for conflict resolution if anyone was interested in stopping Israel's colonisation of Palestine and offering the Palestinians a just solution as was perceived by Oslo. This was being done until it was beginning to bring results. Then under Blair the UK managed to get the EU to remove the MI5 operative who was making promising results, deciding then that Israel could build more prisons where she could keep people without trial and be free to proceed with one of the best militarise in the world against a few guerillas hidden as they always are among civilians. That is in the early 2000's the EU went completely against its rule as part of the quartette and left Israel to do what she wanted.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v33/n05/alastair-crooke/permanent-temporariness

And in the last talks Abbas suggested using Nato to patrol borders - Palestinians most certainly need protection from Israel. Israel would not have any of this.

Further although I know you are Canadian I believe this sums up your political position

http://jfjfp.com/?p=91299

I'd say basically it is a cop out.

The PLO accepted Israel in Oslo at pre 67 lines accepting for the Palestinians only 22% of their historic homeland.... and you are wrong about Hamas as well

http://jfjfp.com/?p=91283

 

What a confused jumble of nonsense.

I don't ignore the culpability of various Israeli governments in perpetuating the violence, but unlike you, I also don't ignore the fact that Arafat was just as culpable and since his death Hamas has carried the torch of intransigence, leaving the corruption to Abbas et.al..

As to characterizing my position, you couldn't be more wrong. First I'm canadian not American, second I'm an atheist and not jewish, third I am a vocal opponent of the settlement program and consider it land theft.

I like your use of the cop out accusation to cop out.

And low and behold, Arafat blew up Oslo.

sorry, but I don't believe hamas. they will never recognize Israel nor will they guarantee its security. Or more accurately they might but only until they think the the time is ripe.