Abortion is as unjust as slavery. An American historical perspective.

Nope!

It was just a document listing the charges against the King of England as the basis for terminating the relationship.

The Articles of Confederation that immediately followed were a miserable failure because they were based upon libertarianism.

The current Law of the Land is based upon the subsequent Constitution that was necessary in order to form a functioning federal government for We the People.

 

I do think that pro life advocates should discuss what would happen if abortion was made illegal.

Im sure there must be some studies about number of babies born in countries that abortion is illegal.

okay so if we take the information you gave and continue down the debate....I have some additional questions

If a woman is pregnant and she decides not to get and abortion and there is no complications that result in a miscarraige what terms do you use to identify what is in her womb at 10 minutes before birth and then immediately after birth?

 

The technical answer is - before birth it is a fetus and after it is a baby.

My personal answer is that the fetus becomes a human prior to birth. My bar is significant brain function - when the wiring for the brain is completed and functioning. Kind of like turning on an xmas tree.

This would also be the point at which a coroner would not pull the plug. A human can be alive but, if significant brain function ceases they pull the plug and put dirt on it.

If one looks at what we value about humanity .. things like memories, love, joy, charity, pleasure. The idea that "life" in of itself is something of value is contradicted by the fact that under extreme torture anyone can be made to beg for death.

Life is not worth much if one is there is only suffering. Without significant brain function there is nothing - no cognition, no pain, no pleasure ... no different than being dead.

 

I agree that I wouldn't want to be a vegetable without those functions what is the point if all one is a shell. So if the zombie apocalypse ever came I'd want a non zombie human to take me out. What's the point your just a structure now a bag of bones now same as being dead.
Okay I'm going to give you a hypothetical situation to respond to

so let's say that someone is in a vegetable coma state. the doctor says I have done a test and they have disease x which causes one to have no significant brain function for 9 monthes. At 9 months and 1 day the disease will heal and the person will wake up and have a functioning brain and have those things you mentioned such as cognition, pain,pleasure, joy, memories, love, charity,etc . Remember this is hypo scenario so no questions like how does the doctor know they have disease x blah blah .lets just say that there's been a test developed that can accurately indicate presence of disease x and let's also include that this test also disproves that they have disease y which renders the person in this vegetative state permanently and there is no hope of change.

K I think that's enough details to continue lol so now in this situation
Let's say legally you are the only one that can choose which action the doctor does next.

Would you choose to order the doctor to pull the plug now?

Or would you choose to have the doctor keep keep the power on for the next 9 months when disease x has ran its course and the vegetative state lifts and person is able to function without being plugged into life support.

 

And there lies the nature of the debate

 

Except that you left out MANY IMPORTANT conditions in your hypothetical scenario.

YOU, and no one else but YOU, must be tethered to this vegetative body for the next 9 months. You will lose your job, promotions, income, etc, etc.

Furthermore YOU will be paying for the recovery of this patient for the next 18 to 22 years out of your own pocket. Initially YOU will be changing their diapers several times a day and preparing their food. YOU will be responsible for housing and clothing them and ensuring that they receive a good education. YOU will be paying for their healthcare. YOU will be responsible to check their homework and take them to soccer games and sleepovers. All this will cost you at least $100,000 and probably a lot more.

Are YOU prepared to make that expensive and life altering commitment?

 

Ya, it's more than trumped by actual real law

Ooops, that's gone now

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NOPE, that is a "misrepresentation" of what I wrote ..I NEVER said it's strictly for pleasure! Should I read further or is your post all lies?

Gee, no misogyny there but the lies continue, married women in monogamous relationships get abortions, too



YUPPERS! No matter how a woman got pregnant she has the right to an abortion..

.

Well that's pretty garbled but it looks like you admit you just want to punish those "promiscuous women" for having sex and getting pregnant.

She does by having an abortion... WHO ARE YOU to say what another person's responsibilities are? Do you ever ask yourself that? Explain why you think YOU should rule over other people's lives and dictate LIKE a DICTATOR what they should do...?


Does it make you feel powerful? Less frightened by women's power ???

They weren't designed to have you rule over them...

Oh, isn't it cute when men pout and make little insults....

That's your response to my "And why you want indecent, irresponsible people with no common sense to raise kids shows you sure must not care about kids !!""

So then you squirm around and make a hysterically funny claim that if women obey your commands and breed they will become better people and you'll approve of them ...here's what women say to that

Gee, gosh another pouty little insult.... an attempt at one(can't even insult well)

You are correct, unlike you, I do not wish to FORCE my "morality" on anyone...I am not that needy.


I desire to have woman have all the rights everyone else has and you want them captive slaves under your command.....

GUES WHO WINS THAT ONE !!!???

Yup ,that's true , and I understand why it confuses you......being told you don't get to run everyone's life when you believe you should won't help you understand the truth.

You're learning...rights can be taken away but YOU won't be able to take away women's rights....there are too many against you

But she DOES...... women do...it's been decided...women have the right to have an abortion....


...and COUNTRIES can decide who is INCONVENIENT and kill human beings.....or as you put kill "living" human beings as if someone might kill a dead human being

 

Does anyone understand this ...."""It's a "punishment" for using sex in its proper form""""


What?


I believe it another admittance by an Anti-Choicer that they do believe women should be punished for having consensual sex by being forced to give birth.

Can it be read any other way?

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WHAT! "Sex " is short for sexual reproduction ! WHAT! Get thee back to thy biology books!!!

Thank you for the morning laugh....I'll get mileage out of that one...

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Unless you are the creator of humans and sex you have no way of knowing that...YOU may not think sex is fun but the rest of the world knows better LOL!

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Uh, women can get pregnant whether the sex is fun or not...SOME NEVER have fun sex as YOU should know...

Nor did I say it would, AND I didn't say 17 times, I didn't mention TIMES....where did you confuse "times" with "fun".........HOW did you get so confused?

.

Oh, I guess that biology book did get cracked... Wow, conceive means to get preggers ...who KNEW!?

Both ludicrous statements are irrelevent ot women's right to have an abortion...

.

You "left" before didn't you? I can easily accept facts and logic...got any?

Biology !!! WHOA! YOU better study hard and often!!!! Discuss with the class how "sex" is short for "sexual reproduction"...

 

You're wrong about both, Obama and oft destroyed "argument" based on Gosnell's murder charges.

You Anti-Choice faction sure don't have much ammo and it's all OLD...

Gosnell was accused of murder, not abortions.
It's an OLD "argument" by Anti-Choicers that has nothing to do with women's right to have abortions, nothing....and NO, you have NO proof that Obama would approve of what Gosnell did...


YOU: ""Wielding absolute power can numb the actor from the reality, anguish and pain experienced by the victim."""

YES , that's true, but you would have men have absolute power over women ...

....those that want to forbid women to abort have been numbed ( and dumbed ) to the pain and anguish of pregnant women who do not want a child.

 

Ok perhaps you didn't read the conversation I was having that prompted me to make up this situation.. of course it cannot be used as a direct and fair comparison to the decision of having an abortion... it's literally a made up scenario and no one is even pregnant lol.

Here is what brought on this response maybe it will make more sense to you with context.

I have seen the debate topic from pro choicers that do not consider pregnancy as a woman carrying a baby a child or a human.instead of arguing that they are incorrect and it is a baby I decided to continue the conversation taking into account that their belief is different than mine.
Think outside the box there are many different ways of discussing ones thoughts. It doesn't have to be hostile and it doesn't have to always be a battle of who is right or wrong. Simply exploring and asking questions about someone else's view point is an example of this. I used to be pro choice and I have completely changed my view on abortion and am now pro life.a lot of my opinions have actually changed throughout my adult life, and the reasons vary from personal experiences and thoughts to giving the other side of my initial opinion a full chance. Abortion and other social/ political views of mine changed as a result of listening to completely opposite or alternative opinions then my own.there are things I think right now that I could end up changing my view on I'm open to the possibility of another person having a point I didn't think of or information I wasn't aware of Or had misinterpreted etc.

If you don't like to engage in these types of conversations that's fine you can keep scrolling and comment on posts that do make sense to you.

Here is the question I asked to someone that disagreed with my view that it's human in he womb

"If a woman is pregnant and she decides not to get and abortion and there is no complications that result in a miscarraige what terms do you use to identify what is in her womb at 10 minutes before birth and then immediately after birth?


"The technical answer is - before birth it is a fetus and after it is a baby.

My personal answer is that the fetus becomes a human prior to birth. My bar is significant brain function - when the wiring for the brain is completed and functioning. Kind of like turning on an xmas tree.

This would also be the point at which a coroner would not pull the plug. A human can be alive but, if significant brain function ceases they pull the plug and put dirt on it.

If one looks at what we value about humanity .. things like memories, love, joy, charity, pleasure. The idea that "life" in of itself is something of value is contradicted by the fact that under extreme torture anyone can be made to beg for death.

Life is not worth much if one is there is only suffering. Without significant brain function there is nothing - no cognition, no pain, no pleasure ... no different than being dead."

 

In which case you will be pleased to discover that 3rd term abortions, after brain function effectively begins, is illegal except in the rare instances when the life and/or health of the woman concerned is in danger.

So the current Law of the Land fits perfectly with your position unless you are willing to sacrifice the lives of women for no valid reason.

And you made no argument about why abortion must be banned prior to effective brain function. Does that mean that you are pro-choice in the first 2 semesters?

 

Yes I am pleased that 3rd term abortions are illegal with those exceptions.
I am pro life and believe that abortion is wrong in any trimsester with the exception for the situations where a mothers life is in jeopardy

 

Which means that you must be pro enslaving pregnant women, right?

 

I don't view having a child as slavery for women. If the women does not desire a child for whatever reason that may be she is able to give it up for adoption

 

But you are still promoting the enslavement of pregnant women against their will.

 

Of which no two are alike.

Are you then saying that single cell with its DNA is that of an animal, a plant? Or is that cell with its DNA human in nature, and possessing the qualities of a human?

False comparison. The cells themselves are the "builders" with the end product being that of a fully composed human being. We live our entire lives with cell division, and the constant growth of new cells. It is an endless procession until death occurs.

 

Just exactly how is holding women responsible for their actions which they voluntarily entered into "enslaving" a woman?

 

You are denying women their Constitutional rights by illegally forcing them to bear an unwanted child.

 

Veeeeeery funny. I have an A in the class. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

 

Having sex is not illegal so punishing them for it I would assume is unconstitutional....you need to commit a crime to be found guilty and punished....

Plus the LAW says that consent to one act (sex) is not consent to any other act

You can argue but the law rules...and rightly so...YOU want that right for yourself but want to take that right away from women...

 

Nothing about you troubles me. I just like to know who I have on the other end of the conversation. Some have genuine concern for human life, while others are just being sanctimonious. You have made it clear which one you are.

Laws will create a demand for medical tourism and black market drugs/surgery, but will never stop one single person from having an abortion if they want one. The nucleus of this issue is the "Unwanted" part. These humans are unwanted by you as well, and that makes you part of the problem.

 

I don't?

You're the one who claimed " "sex" is short for "sexual reproduction"...

...and you haven't refuted anything I posted.

 

again I do not view a pregnant woman as a slave. I have heard this statement from pro choicers before. They said that by making abortion illegal and thus forcing a woman to continue to carry until birth this somehow makes her a slave to the baby because it depends on her body to continue development.this argument does not hold true in my opinion

I don't agree that this makes a women a slave. Yes the baby depends on the mothers body to develop not arguing that point it's basic biology.Slavery is ownership of another person against their will and resulted in horrible treatment and losses. If someone is really convinced that the developing baby is the same as the slave masters in US history then I would suggest they read some more about what slaves were forced to do and ask themselves if the mother is also subjected to the things actual slaves were. I'll list a few to show you the major difference between the women we are discussing and an actual slave.

The women does not lose her legal freedoms of voting, right to own property,right to own a business, right to take a walk ,right to continue to live with family members instead of being forcefully taken against her will and put into the slave owners choice of dwelling.sexual consent laws are not taken away from her, She still has the right not be raped. She is not made to partake in any other unwanted sexual activities with the man that Has declared ownership of her or anything other man that her master assigns to her.She is not beaten whipped cut hanged lynched as ACTUAL slaves were. If the women finds herself the victim of a crime she is allowed to report the crime,the perpetrator of this crime if found guilty isn't let off or not penalized as those were that abused ACTUAL slaves. The things that held true for slaves do not hold true for a pregnant woman


She is forced to carry a pregnancy until birth yes. But that does not make her a slave. I would suggest the the pro choicers pick a different argument when debating Abortion.The events that took place during the time that Slavery was legal in the US is not something that should be misrepresented.im not going to apply slavery to abortion so save your time with any copy paste definitions of slavery and play word games to defend your view.

My view is based on the examples I gave and Will only change if you can show me that these things also apply to a pregnant woman in the US if abortion was again made illegal

 

I do not see the hypothetical as relates to my comments on significant brain function. The plug is not pulled until sig brain function ceases. In your hyp you suggest that the plug be pulled prior to this point (on the basis of some future possibility). I disagree with pulling the plug on the basis of a future possibility.

If I had some quality of life left - I would not choose to pull the plug. Keep in mind that those in a vegitative state still have sig brain function - which is why the plug i not pullled. Would I want the plug pulled if I was in such a state ? Yes.

I find people tend to ignore the fact that - we all die and that life is relatively short in the grande scheme of things. I do not see any point in waiting out that short period of time when there is no quality of life. Better to get on to the next life, stage or what have you.

 

Well your opinion luckily doesn't affect women.


Slavery IS using FORCE against another person such as forcing them to give birth( just as slave owners in the 19th century forced their slave women to give birth.)


Women are persons with rights and don't need your opinion on what child birth does to them.

NO, adoption isn't for everyone.
NO woman should give up 9 months of her life, suffer the permanent and temporary pain and damage to her body, suffer career setbacks, endure time off work and possible job loss, suffer financial and/or educational setbacks just to make you feel all warm and fuzzy.

How many unwanted kids have you adopted? There are MANY waiting NOW/.....you want MORE unwanted kids?? WHY?

Yes, you want women to be slaves that bend to YOUR will....