Wahington state becomes first US state to recognize as holodomor as genocide.

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by zoom_copter66, May 28, 2017.

  1. Til the Last Drop

    Til the Last Drop Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Leftism has contributed NOTHING.

    The only success stories coming after globalism, where all nations live off America via free defense, no tariffs into our market, our workers paying an illegal income tax to finance foreign central banks via currency swaps, and of course, the leveling of "rogue nations" for the entry of their elite along side ours in taking over of the RN's resources.

    Unless you're someone who attributes all working class gains to socialism, when they were achieved via private unions (who socialists kill), and commonwealth law (established long before socialism).

    It is like the federal reserve. No one who studies it would ever be on its side outside of those vested.
    Basically, quit pretending.

    I like how you associate "line" with death. Pretty socialist for not being a socialist.
     
  2. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    None of the countries I mentioned are totalitarian, but they are practicing socialism in varying degrees. They are all stable successful countries with good standards of living from top to bottom.of course they have ups and downs financially and things need to be adjusted from time to time. All of them have a much smaller poverty rate than the US and much lower murder rate as well as a longer average life span than the US. In addition, most do not have the trillion dollar debts that we have incurred. All of them also have single payer health care. Socialism works when it is applied properly in many countries.
     
  3. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Look at the trend. I posted that it takes time to reach the totalitarian condition such as the USSR, once at that point it seems to take about 50 years for the socialist system to implode. Socialism is a stepping stone to communism and totalitarianism, that's the direction all govts drift constantly towards until there is a revolution or collapse and the nation reverts some degree away from tyranny.

    All the nations you listed have moved over the past 60 years far down the socialist road. They are not the USSR yet, but they are all now facing financial problems, they cannot afford their socialist programs. Even Sweden is having problems.
     
  4. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The USSR was totalitarian from the start and so we're the Chinese. None of the nations I mentioned are heading in that direction at all. Socialism is simply a system whereby a country decides to pool money from all of the people to create better living conditions for all. The US used socialistic tactics to build great public works systems and a great national highway system along with excellent projects like Tennessee Valley Authority, Hoover Dam and the Grand Coulee Dam in the 30s and 40s under FDR. Then Eisenhower undertook the huge project in the '50s that created our great Interstate Highway system. Trump has proposed a multi trillion dollar infrastructure program to upgrad our roads, bridges and airports. Those are all examples of socialism at work. It isn't a dirty word sir, it is simply one of the means to improve a country. Personal freedom does not need to be sacrificed in order for socialism to work. In the USSR and China, there was no freedom of speech or personal freedom from the start. Look it up and learn what these terms mean.
     
  5. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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  6. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Did I ever claim that the USA was not on the road of socialism? No, to the contrary. I wrote that all governments move steadily into socialism and (with a few exceptions) continue on into a totalitarian system until they collapse or are overthrown.

    As I have repeatedly stated, it takes about 50 years for a nation to collapse once it hits the state of the USSR. The nations you listed are not there yet, but they are headed in that direction.

    The USA started out farther from socialism and tyranny than any nation, but has moved steadily away from freedom, the move took a huge leap under FDR. FDR would have been tarred and feathered by the American people of the 1780's. It took 235 years for the USA to move from a totally free nation to being on the verge of a police state, another 20 years on its "progressive" road and it will be a totalitarian state as bad as the USSR. Another 50 years for it to collapse, but maybe less since the modern world is so interconnected.

    The European nations are on the same road, most a little ahead of the USA.

    The road to socialism (Hayek called it the road to serfdom) starts subtly and sneakily with goodies from the government, things work well at first then like cancer the govt grows until it cannot keep its promises, then it grabs power.
     
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  7. goody

    goody Banned

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    No doubt that the Soviets conducted fascist implementations. No good.
     
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  8. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Live off America via free defense". When was the last time USA actually defend a country ? It was vietnam and it wasn't really for the good of civilian.

    Leftism existed before socialism and will survive socialism and still exist outside socialism.

    Workers unions were considered as leftist den when they were created and not really appreciated.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

    I hate Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Che Guevara, Mao so that make me what kind of socialist ?

    The problem is at the right wing, their is people using "socialist" as an insult like some leftist scum insult everybody of "fascist".
     
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  9. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    "
    Fire and Ice - The Winter War of Finland and Russia"
     
  10. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    "
    Deportation Of The Crimean Tatars In 1944. How It Happened"
     
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  11. goody

    goody Banned

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    They are actually very helpful assets to our geopolitics and I believe will be included in our future plans unless Russia's current Syria stance - towards YPG in particular- changes.

    Time will tell.
     
  12. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    did you sand it to me this from your capital Batumi? Crimea is Ukraine and always will be
     
  13. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry to pollute your thread with the debate about socialism, if you whish, I would open a new thread if Til the last drop want to continue to argue.
     
  14. goody

    goody Banned

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    Soviets and their allies couldn't even bring and set a clear proletariat dictatorship, let alone developing proper grounds for making the practicality of Marxist theory possible. What they did was taking over the state and building their own "elite" with a deeply structured hierarchy.
    American strategists when trying to solve a problem that troubles them in geopolitics often use a method; "find out who benefited the most and then think of necessary action". It may be worth a discussion if such method is useful or not, that's a subject of another topic but when that sort of perspective is taken into account, it's clear as broad day light that entire Soviet experience rendered America as the main beneficiary. Whatever they did it helped the US proving its own public along with the whole western population that their system was superior, better and freer. Soviets allowed this happen. Soviets helped the US building a unipolar world which is also called by many, the hegemony.

    So it's PLAIN IGNORANCE but NOTHING ELSE that makes the terminology VAGUE!
     
  15. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    man its ok, i know that Koba´s ussr has 0 to do with socialism or capitalism it was a typical mongol state , with a czar-great khan (koba or politburo) on the TOP, people - slaves (bydlo) , and beklerbeks (nomenclature) 0.02 of sovok population
     
  16. goody

    goody Banned

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    Don't be so sentimental now. What I said in my post is clear. Tatars are TURKS and we have ties to them.
     
  17. litwin

    litwin Well-Known Member

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    no they dont , they are spicing Tatar language yes, but call them turks, its a bit your style. so why you don't help them ? they fight for Ukraine everyday , against mongol occupation
     
  18. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ever wondered why that may be so?
     
  19. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What do you suppose 'the world' will do once it wakes up?
     
  20. Channe

    Channe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hopefully we will start to see sharing of the power in a more reasonable measure.
    If Jews are only 2% of the world's population but own over half of all media and banking, it seems they have a monopoly. I would like to see their control being more representative of their population.
    Imagine if the 2% of the Muslims in America controlled the majority of our news, media, newspaper, and banks. Most Americans would be outraged, but yet we don't care when it comes to Jews.
     
  21. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pretty much, but they still subscribed to socialist/communist ideology and managed to accomplish many of the goals that socialists/communists set for themselves, such as nationalizing industry, collectivizing agriculture and establishing an all-powerful state that eviscerated just about everything associated with Liberalism and Individualism.

    Actually, 'broad' would have been a better term, but I just can't bring myself to get all worked up over this.

    Nevertheless, the Soviets referred to themselves as Socialists and Communists, they subscribed to Socialist and Communist theory and they called their "progressive" gulag the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

    Everyone with a lick of sense knows that it is impossible to create a socialist/communist state (or socio-economic order, if you prefer) that fully meets the criteria of the utopian fantasy that can only exist in socialist/communist theory, but that doesn't mean you can't call the idiots who are attempting to fulfill that pipe dream and the "progressive" **** holes they create "communist" and "socialist". Personally, I prefer to refer to them as the Babeuvian Illiterati, but unless you know who François-Noël Babeuf was and what he stood for you're not going to have a clue who and what I'm talking about. That's why it is better to use the terms "socialist" and "communist" because people recognize those terms and understand what they mean, even when they are used in a broad or imprecise sense.

    Ya know, libertarians can't create the Individualist world that they would love to create, either, but that doesn't mean we can't call them libertarians. They still subscribe to libertarianism and live and promote the philosophy to the best of their abilities.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  22. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And why do we call National Socialists "fascists" instead of "socialists"?

    It's an indisputable fact that National Socialism is grounded in socialism. Even Hitler admitted that "the whole of National Socialism is contained within Marxism", and as Nobel Prize winning economist Friedrich Hayek pointed out in Chapter 12 ("The Socialist Roots of Nazism"} of his book The Road to Serfdom, "It is significant that the most important ancestors of National Socialism [Johann Gottlieb] Fricht, [Johann Karl] Rodbertus and [Ferdinand] Lassalle - are at the same time acknowledged fathers of socialism." Johann Plenge, a socialist scholar on Marxism who later became one of the most important ideological proponents of National Socialism stated the war economy created in Germany in 1914 "is the first realization of a socialist society, and its spirit the first active, and not merely demanding, appearance of a socialist spirit. The needs of the war have established the socialist idea in German economic life, and thus the defense of our nation produced for humanity the idea of 1914, the idea of German organization, the people's community (Volksgemeinschaft) of national socialism..."

    In light of this, we could refer to National Socialists as socialists. After all, the National Socialist German Workers' Party didn't call itself the Fascist German Workers' Party, did it?
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  23. goody

    goody Banned

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    Litwo don't make me think down of you.
    Tatars are TURKS...
     
  24. Diamond

    Diamond Well-Known Member

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    Fascism is not an off-shot of Socialism. It's impossible to jump from Socialism (or Communism) to Fascism. Only Capitalism can lead to Fascism (and it inevitably always does because Capitalism has no other place to go). Capitalism dates back to all the way to the early Middle Ages. Communism and Socialism both date back to 1848. Fascism didn't arrive until the early 1900s.

    So now you want to talk of examples in History. As mentioned above, Capitalism was the first model of economics and I'm sure we can all recall the glory days of the common man's pleasantries enduring life under the Feudalism State. Capitalism was much more like Communism back then and it's popularity inspired tales that still ring through the history pages of that dastardly Robin Hooded fellow. That vile Socialist scumbag that dare rob from the rich and give to the poor. In fact people migrated (when they could) throughout the following centuries cheerily and merrily spreading aristocratic Capitalism everywhere they found new ground. Until one day that new ground was found across a vast ocean. Here, in the new world, what had previously been nothing more that a tale of tyranny was about to take root in this fertile new soil. It began with the Boston tea party, but it didn't end there.

    Long after Independence was claimed there was still much purging to be done. The founding fathers established a new Socialist government "for the people and by the people" but there was still a lot of bad habits. You see the majority of these new migrants knew nothing more than how to work for someone else and be dictated to by the wealthy. Management was not their forte for much of the masses so the decision making was still left to the discretion of the wealthy who quickly gobbled up land-rights despite much land being given away for westward expansion and exploration. But their was another matter to be addressed. Capitalism (like a cancer) was still ingrained in the psyche of good business (meaning "good for the business man" not the employee). Southern farmers required large labor forces to work their farms. Now they had a choice, they could either try to turn a profit by hiring workers or they could by slaves from Africa in a one-time purchase that would insure free-labor for generations. At first I think we all knew which option they choose to go with, and it wasn't a big deal for a long long while, because it appeared to be common sense. However, the nation was now split with Socialist working the industrial north and Capitalist farming the southern farms. Eventually those two worlds collided again in what we call today the US Civil War.

    When that Civil War ended, the 13th Amendment was added to the US Constitution, effectively putting an end to the first "guest-worker" program, and then the 14th Amendment was added to make sense of what that meant for those now homeless guest workers left in it's wake. However, Capitalism is a hard beast to kill. Just like Hillary Clinton fans, they never surrender. You see the had already spread to the North unnoticed 70 years prior and established the NYSE, which was the birth of Fascism in the US. Fascist detest labor laws, they are Capitalist on steroids. They don't want to hire US citizens that cost too much to turn a profit, so they countered in two moves; first a new guest worker program (requiring work visas) and second outsourcing manufacturing jobs to slave-labor nations that they could later ship in the goods from at minimal costs. Once (30 years later) the Federal government figured out that they weren't collecting enough taxes by US consumers the Fascist had left unemployed the 16th Amendment was added to the US Constitution. Well if there is one thing that Fascist don't like more than working and paying people a living wage it's paying taxes, because Fascist are all about profit for themselves. So this was when the first lobbies were created to grant immunities and support favorable candidates that were susceptible to bribes. Monopolies already existed by this point and Socialist formed unions to stand against the Fascist. The Fascist tried to move William McKinley into power with their biggest threat Theodore Roosevelt impotently as his VP. But McKinley was assassinated by an exploited worker and the Fascist plot backfired. Roosevelt to office and went to war on the Fascist by breaking the monopolies.

    Then there were the bankers like, JP Morgan. Nobody knew more about money than the banks. Outsourced corporations were safe from taxation as long as their money didn't reenter US jurisdiction. However banks (even international banks) are still beholden to sovereign nations. Allied nations agreed to work together to counter Fascist bankers to make accessible assets of corporations attempting to hide. But all banks are not allies willing to accept such an agreement. So some nations found it profitable to set up tax-havens to protect Fascist corporations. Yet it didn't end there either, we saw it again in 2008 with housing market crash followed by the bank-bailout as US workers still fought hard for a living wage as they watched their lifesaving get flushed down the toilet. We are now $20 trillion in debt, held in poverty by the .01%, that is the success of Capitalism.


    So after all that's been mentioned above regarding the success and failure of different systems, lets take a moment to hyperbole this to define (despite all differences and needs) which system is most likely to dominate. You talked about Globalism, remember? Socialist to not welcome Globalization and I'm about to explain why. The G20 summit has been considering sustainability since 1996 globally (aka one world order stuff), but we can simplify the issue by imagining a colony of interstellar travelers traveling for generations on a contained ship with finite resources. Survival trumps profit here. That means the Government is the all important (i.e. Communism) under a totalitarianism regime. No democracy, no profit, just do or die. And their would be no successful resistance.
     
  25. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's probably because Leftists have tried to cover it up. http://www.ukrainiangenocide.org/
     

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