Muslims and our way of life?

It wasn't the Red Scare - the UK had contract compliance issues with Iran - they'd cut Iran in for a small % of the profits, & promised to train Iranians on managing & the technical side of drilling, refining, maintaining the oil fields. UK balked on complying, Iran (Mossadegh) nationalized the oil fields. UK went to Pres. Truman, trying to get him to involve the US in gunboat diplomacy. Truman said No, it was an internal affair between UK & Iran. UK then went to candidate (as I recall) Eisenhower, & sold the issue as the Soviets trying to muscle in on the Middle East. That was enough for Eisenhower & the Dulles brothers.

The problem there was that US intel wasn't up to the job of informing Eisenhower what was going on between UK & Iran (or the message was discounted). US oil interests were very excited by the possibility of operating in Iran. The Dulles brothers were eager to slip the leash, & Eisenhower was looking for ways to run the military on the cheap, & therefore embraced covert action - & so there's blame to go around, certainly.

However, given that UK & France between them turned the Middle East into yet another cockpit of the World, the reverberations of which we're still coping with today, long after they carved up the Ottoman Empire post-WWI, I think blaming the US for the original mess is projection. The real culprits - other than the astonishing weakness of the Ottoman Empire itself - lies across the Atlantic, on both sides of the English Channel.

 

Better qualified? That's un-deniable, given that she had experience. That she may have been lacking in ideas, morals or personality, yes, okay; But she was more qualified for that job, that's for sure.

 

She only had experience messing things up. Her emails. Benghazi. What did she accomplish as Secretary of State or as a Senator? While Trump has no gov experience, he at least has common sense and built a valuable company. Secondly, Trump defeated Clinton fair and square even though she had the "experience" you mentioned and the media on her side she still failed to beat him. IF she is so experienced why didn't she win? Hillary of course, showing her lack of character, will blame other people for her failures.

 

Except it is no longer the 7th Century and most of the Occidental world has moved beyond the brutality of hanging homosexuals from construction cranes and stoning women to death for committing adultery... as a rape victim... you know, she deserved it, right? Most of the Occidental world has moved beyond sawing the head off a living human being for offending their god(s). And most of the Occidental world does not strap bombs to itself and shout "Jesus is great!" whilst blowing innocent 8-year-old girls to bits. Most of the Occidental world has moved beyond declaring war on cartoonists and writers who make images of its religious figureheads. Nobody got killed, for example, when the Metropolitan Museum in New York displayed a work by Andres Serrano titled Piss Christ which featured a crucifix of Jesus Christ submerged in a bottle of urine. Yet even drawing a picture of Muhammed the pedophile and rapist? You get a target on your forehead and a bunch of ululating knuckle-dragging, addle-minded sycophants thinking they'll get to **** 72 virgins in heaven if they kill you.

This is a debate forum in which we exchange ideas and share our political opinions. Your participation is voluntary, but it is advised to show up with facts ready to defend your position.

 

Neither of the major parties' candidates were well qualified.

 

Is Gitmo still open for torture?

You talk exactly like them, measuring your beliefs and concluding that your bearded man in the skies is better. There's just no place for rationale in your respective discourses. The fact that you are not one of "them" is purely a matter of geography.

Sure - but I am not interested in re-educating you. Furthermore about stuff you already know. Furthermore for free. Debates without good will is just an exchange of slogans, a thing i'm not much into. If you're not ready to assume what you've done I see no point in debating it. I'm not here to proselytize. You think you're all white while the other guys are all black? Your choice, but don't be surprised if you don't make much converts among those who have memory and common sense.

 

Yeah, but Trump thought that being President was like being CEO of the world. Have he had known, I don't think he would have even postulated for the job. Nobody told him that he had to actually work.

HRC had her bad sides too, obviously. But she knew the job in and out over Trump, I don't think anybody can deny that.

 

I don't know that Islam is ever going to undergo an equivalent to the Reformation that Christianity went through. & in the West, that was an ugly series of nationalist & dynastic (almost class wars, but that was still in the offing) wars, with people & provinces & families lining up with competing factions until the smoke cleared & we got the beginnings of modernity. Established nations, a tendency toward rule of law, universities, stirrings of separating church from state, humanism, & so on. Romantic love - a recent invention - & the beginnings of regarding people - men, @ least - as individuals with internal lives & not merely in bulk as members of a class or guild or even family.

 

Are you seriously trying to conflate the torture of a known terrorist for the express purpose of extracting information to prevent future attacks with the cold-blooded blowing to bits of an innocent 8-year-old girl at a concert?

I'm sorry? Where did I do this? Please provide a link(s).

Specifically what "rationale" would that be?

Yeah. No. I'm not strapping bombs to myself to kill for some nonexistent deity. In fact, I'm not strapping bombs to myself for any reason whatsoever. Nor am I sawing people's heads off whose beliefs differ from mine, nor am I crushing the skulls of rape victims with rocks.

How arrogant and presumptuous to assume I either need or would welcome that.

Your humility is heartwarming.

Your poorly-veiled attempt at absolving yourself from your poorly-supported arguments is quite transparent... and amusing at the same time.

There appears to be neither any contextual nor syntactic relevance to this statement.

I have not denied the sins of Occidental culture - I am simply stating that it is my view that we have progressed beyond the barbarism that once was our trade, while large portions of the Islamic world seem to relish embracing it - often from dung huts flung across the stinking, barren deserts of the world specifically because they have refused to acknowledge modernity.

 

Doesn't change the veracity of my position in any way.

 

When unable to answer, just insult and that'll divert attention from the fact you have no clue or know you're wrong but refuse to admit it..

Well done, the perfect reply.

 

Known terrorist the US refused to charge or send to trial.
Oops.

 

Not really.
The US has been bombing civilians for years and got away with it.
The US deserved 9/11 but it should have been military targets, not civilians as that made the attackers as bad as you.

 

How can you know he is a terrorist if he didn't got a credible trial? And even if he were, isn't it barbarian to torture in the XXIth century? I can tell that if muslim were doing it, you would be quick to denounce it.

No, the true comparison with a suicide bomber would be a non-suicide bomber, safely flying above its objective and alive and well when he returns to his base. That and being paid and trained is about the only difference in the end.

You looked ready to start a jihad about something like a christ in urine.

That your crimes can be rationalized while theirs can't. Which is irrational - Everything happens for a reason.

And so are the vast majority of muslims.

I just can't be bothered to convince people that deny reality, that's all. Because it is about convincing - you do know that your side has committed atrocities - you just try to rationalize them. What, you think that if I don't post a link for each atrocity you committed they will somehow become suspicious, maybe even non-existant? Like I wrote, I doubt you are that stupid.

You were hanging black folk on poplar trees a mere half century ago and are still practicing extra-judicial torture. Who do you think you are, to tell the world how evolved it is? You are an upstart nation of nouveau bourgeois (on the brink of civil war) telling millenia-old civilisations what their problem is, with predictible results.

Spare us your "virtues".

 

I must admit it doesn't.

 

Not when the ends justify the means in asymmetrical warfare. And I should point out that not only do they torture ours when they catch them, they then drag their charred, limbless torsos through the streets and hang them from utility poles.

We never should have invaded Iraq. That was GWB's personal vendetta against 'Sadum.' But in the intervening years, Al Q'aeda and later ISIS have used civilians as human shields. Have we killed innocent civilians in the prosecution of ISIS and Al'Qaeda? Yes. But it was their actions that forced our hand militarily which is very different that blowing yourself up in a shopping mall.

You seem reasonably intelligent so I have to conclude that this misattribution of my position is intentional. I was making an analogy between the response of the Christian community versus the Islamic community when one of their religious idols is desecrated. Both groups are offended, but one - for the mere drawing of their religious figurehead - is ready to strap bombs to children to kill as many infidels as possible; while the other writes a few letters to politicians and makes a few signs to march around with signaling their displeasure over a depiction that is, on balance, far more disrespectful to the idol.

I've rationalized nothing. My position is that the West has progressed beyond beheadings, honor killings, and stonings for everyday transgressions while the Islamic world remains in the Dark Ages.

There seem to be too many who are willing to strap on a bomb vest and drive lorries into crowds.

Pusillanimity noted.

I've already acknowledged we are not without sin.

 

Democracy is often contrary to US Geo-Political Strategy.

 

Racist? What race is Islam?

Why can't people think ffs?

 

Your rethorics are not large enough so that you can hide behind them.

Like I've wrote but a few posts after the one you cited, segregationism and racism are pretty much the same thing. It is a knee-jerk reaction caused by fear and prejudice.

Oh, regarding your sign: Without socialism, you'd likely be working on your 16-h shift and be paid in company bonds. You'd also have no roads, no police, no firemen, no aqueducs, and no more of this ridiculous army that makes your pride.

 

This must be why unions are kaput...because they are needed, right?

As far as infrastructure and emergency services-what did people EVAR do before big govt?

Also, I noticed you never explained what race islam was.

 

Excellent post. As you have shown, common sense and logic is very rare in liberal la-la land.

 

I see it is well in time to be devil's advocate here.

It is easy to burst out in emotional breakouts and even easier is to aimlessly point your fingers and scream "terrorists!". Very few take their time to calmy sit down and contemplate what is really happening here. There are a few simple facts that everyone always seem to miss or ignore and without realising these facts, suggesting a proper solution is impossible. Demonising Islam is simple, but won't serve any purpose whatsoever. It will only serve to feed the Liberal narrative where Muslims are fragile, little victims.

Yes, diversity is the problem, but we need a more honest discussion about terrorism in the West.

Firstly, the most obvious of facts is that Idlam - obviously - is doing something right since they, for the moment, are a lot stronger than the West. Unlike Westerners, Muslims also have strong moral beliefs and a will too maintain tradition and they value family and femininity.

Thus, Islam has a clear upperhand against the contemporary rootlessness and degenerated West with decadent values.

Islam, unlike Christianity, is not only a set of morals, but more of a broader political ideology - it not only tells how man should behave, but also how society should be organised. The West, as it stands today, stands completely without guidance and have dug its own grave by fully embrace the fallacies of "tabula rasa".

No wonder Muslims hate us and are able to dribble past us as if nothing.

The "Muslim problem" will go away if the Western corpse manages to come back to life. No dumb desert teaching can destroy our civilisation.