How US gun culture compares with the world

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by mihapiha, Jul 20, 2017.

  1. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    :lol:
    funny.
     
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  2. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    Interesting view. So the only thing unique about the US I could pinpoint to potentially justify higher homicide rates and violent crime rates you dismiss and call silly, and also at the same time claim that I shall not ask others to show me otherwise or different arguments. Guess you have none of your own...
     
  3. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah I'm pretty sure Australia is an island.

    What is different is that the US shares a border with the worlds largest drug corridor.

    Population density has a lot to do with it.

    There are more people in California than there are in all of Canada. California is almost double Australia's population.

    When it comes to "diversity" no country comes close to the US. Australia and Canada aren't even in the same ball park.

    Mass murderers in Europe have been far more successful with bombs and vehicles than guns.

    You miss the point on Australia's crime statistics.

    They have one murder rate for "Australians", and another murder rate for "indigenous" people.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  4. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    No. I was quite clear-- your suggestion that I disprove a position you have not yet meaningfully supported is silly

    If you want to argue the high rate of homicide in the US is caused by the high rate of gun ownership in the US - and apparently you do - the onus is on -you- to support said argument. Feel free to begin.

    As far as your admitted failure to pinpoint something unique about the US to potentially justify higher homicide rates - other than your unsupportable allusion to the rate of gun ownership - consider this:

    - To commit a homicide, there must be motive, means, opportunity and a lack of negative imperative.
    - Motive, means and opportunity are common across all people and locations - the lack of said negative imperative, less so.
    - Regardless of the means, motive and opportunity, a sufficiently strong negative imperative lowers, if not eliminates the possibility of a homicide.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
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  5. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    it's a continent. ;)

    Ok we can definitely discuss the drug corridor. That is a valid argument after all Central and South America have the highest murder rates in the world.

    I don't think population density does apply because most Western European countries do have a higher population density than the US, which would be favorable on the US' statistics.
    But definitely the less a territory is populated the lower the homicide rate would be.

    So you do think that the US' diversity is the cause...

    Mass murderers are everywhere. But the US just has a lot more of them. Your point was that homicide rates wouldn't jump in Japan if they had guns on them. My question was, if by that rational mass shootings would the same fatality rates, if they would be forced to use knifes instead of guns. In other words: if there is no negative effect by people owning guns, does this mean, that there wouldn't be any good from them not owning guns either?

    What does the fact that indigenous people have a higher homicide rate have to do with the US' (at least) twice as high homicide rate compared to high income countries?
     
  6. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    You appear quite unaware as to the actual extent of "mass murders" in the US, especially as related to firearms.
    For a long-term, as compared to a sensationalized, perspective, see the link in my signature.
     
  7. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's also an Island, and a single country. The only continent to be all three.

    The fact that it's a continent doesn't mean it's not an island or a country.

    Western European countries are more densely populated, but also much smaller, and until recently not ethically diverse.

    As more Africans and people from the ME flood into Europe, you're going to see (and already have) substantial increases in violence.

    Of course diversity causes conflict. This is why separate cultures, even in the same country, self-segregate.

    The problem here is that people want to pretend that you can keep guns away from people who want to use them to murder. Firearms are a genie that cannot be shoved back into a bottle. Basic firearms are not difficult to make. Hell, you can 3D print them now. Anyone with a CNC machine and some software can mass produce them.

    Look at all the attacks in France with fully automatic firearms in recent years. Neither France nor Australia has been able to keep firearms out of the hands of murderers.

    Passing anti-gun laws only do one thing: leave law-abiding people more vulnerable to those who would do them harm.

    The focus should not be on taking sharp objects out of the hands of violent people, the focus should be on removing violent people from society.
     
  8. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Highly depend. Thieves in my country are less often armed because carrying a gun without any authorization can put you on jail. Furthermore, I extremly rarely heard of that case of things happening in my country. They wait that people go on holidays.

    I would call the police and try to hide or get out of my house. Otherwise, I would take a baseball and wait them.

    The problem about the murders is that ordinary people commit murders too. A lot of murder have an emotionnal component and people are often killed by some people they know...

    Anyway, it's clear that in USA trying to remove to all citizens their guns from the first day would be totally stupid (without considering the political aspect). Even if one day, the USA decided to remove most guns (which will not happens), to not put in danger people, it would be a good solution to do that on 30 years at least by for instance removing fully automatic guns first.
     
  9. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    A large portion of the people who commit violent crime in the US are previously convicted felons. For a felon, carrying a gun will land you in jail.
    The US sees 3 million burglaries per year. The property is occupied in about 1 million of these.
    Cool. We have guns for the same reason.
    This, of course, has nothing to do with guns.
     
  10. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry, I'm few confident in human nature in a general way.

    Thanks for the information, I didn't know. In France, most murders are commited either in French guyane who is in south america, in Corsica (they have a culture of vendetta and it's the region of France with the most guns) and in the ghettos.

    Ok.

    By the way, I would use a gun if I had one.

    I don't know if the nature of homicide is the same in my country and yours. However, someone, under powefull emotions or alcohol can have gesture they regrets thereafter. Triggering a trigger can be very easy.

    I don't think I will argue much more about that topic, gun controle work "well" in my country, but I'm not willing to act as lesson giver. I'm more curious about that issue, but it's not about blaming you for your own culture.
     
  11. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    I'm unaware of talking about "assault weapons" and I don't think that was the point of any of posts I made.

    Enjoy: https://www.britannica.com/demystified/is-australia-an-island

    I heard of the self-Segregation in other countries. In Austria we really don't get to see that. Even in Vienna, there is no "China Town" or an area where you'd find a specific ethnicity. I hear the EU is financing studies done in Vienna, why this apparently isn't the case here, because everywhere else the self-Segregation does cause problems. I hear it takes usually 3 generations to be fully assimilated into a culture, while it's achieved in one in Austria. Being the capital city of the former Austro-Hungarian empire, and having had a dozen peoples represented there at that time, makes the city particularly used to foreigners with nearly 40% of the cities population not having exclusively an Austrian background.

    I even experienced that while I lived in Montréal for a few months. First it appeared interesting, but then after a while it just felt weird to me. I didn't understand why people with Tunesien heritage hung out only with other Tunesiens. They seem surprised after they found out that I'm neither Tunesien nor Muslim, and I thought the blue eyes and white skin gave it away :D

    So I do know of this phenomenon, but living in Austria, I must say that I never grew up with that mindset, even though I'm not Austrian myself.

    I believe we get about 1 to 1.5 million illegal immigrants into the EU on annual bases, and this has been and will continue to go on for years. Immigration cannot be stopped. Austria has been taking in if I recall correctly about 20 - 30k asylum seekers annually. Oddly enough, people living very rural, who don't come in contact with these people seem most afraid of them.

    I appreciate your views on the matter. I feel that we are now approaching the kind of discussion I really was looking forward to.

    I agree with the statements I made bold when I quoted you. The difference I believe is that both of us just look for the solution to these problems in different areas.

    The access to firearms to those who want them cannot be stopped anyhow. I can order the same crap of the deep-web as American for the same price even though we have much strickter gun laws. So I don't think this is going to change any time soon. The difference is, that I believe that the gun is a tool you ought to be trained in, in order to use it properly in a critical situation. In my mind, the gun could be compared to a car. Many know how to drive, but few can do so on a slippery road remaining calm while drifting through the turns. And even for a car you need a license because we can acknowledge that you ought to know what you're doing.

    Based on that logic, I believe, it takes years and years of training to become like a navy seal or SWAT or someone highly professional with a gun, who will use it appropriately in a crisis situation. I feel very comfortable knowing that people who're highly trained or are willing to go through the training have access to guns, than my neighbor. I just don't trust them, and think it's more likely that they'll shoot a dog, themselves or some family member of theirs, than them taking out some terrorist or mass shooter for that matter.

    I think I am liberal in that sense, because I really don't care if you have a tank or a century old colt at home, as long as you got the license and were trained properly to that stuff. Same with a car: I don't approve people driving a truck if they only have a license for a bike.
     
  12. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    You did, however, mention 'mass murders'; contextually, you mean mass murders with guns.
    If you choose to remain ignorant on the issue, that;s fine, but then do not expect your opinions in mass murder in the US to mean much,
     
  13. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Is Australia a country? Is it surrounded on all sides by water and big sharks? It's an island.

    You can split hairs all you want with that, I think you understand the point I was making.

    Muslims are not integrating anywhere they go. In fact, its predominately the 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims in those countries who are committing the terror attacks.

    Immigration can be stopped, saying that it can't is just ridiculous. If there is unchecked immigration into a country, it is only because the government is letting it happen.

    As a former US Marine I can tell you that I already knew most of what I needed to know regarding gun handling/operation/marksmanship before I ever went to boot camp.

    I've been handling firearms since I was 8 years old, hunting small game and things like that. I could hit a running rabbit at 30 yards with a 410 at 9 years old.

    Handling firearms is not complicated, and I have taught complete novices how to handle firearms competently. It does not take as long as you might think.

    Even as a Marine, you spend all of two weeks at the range learning to safely handle and shoot a select-fire weapon.

    In terms of accidents, last year there were 546 accidental firearm deaths in the US. Your chances of being accidentally shot dead are about the same as winning the lottery.

    To put that in perspective, about 450 people die each year from falling off their beds.

    Let's look at your "driver license"/"training" analogy.

    How many of those people every year, despite that training, get behind the wheel drunk, high, text, or behave in extremely irresponsible manner?

    Just because you have received training, does not mean you will actually learn from it.

    Irresponsible people do irresponsible things, and since we can't thought police people, the only thing we can do is hold them accountable.

    Should you lose access to YOUR car because tens of thousands of people get behind a wheel and do stupid things?
     
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  14. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well let's look at that.

    If I'm in France, in your house, and I get so angry that I decide to kill you, am I going to stop because I don't have a gun?

    No, I'm going to beat you to death with whatever I have. Go in the kitchen and grab a knife, shovel, chainsaw, glass bottle, machete, rock, or whatever is available.

    A murder that has an emotional component is acted on immediately, with whatever you have at hand.

    You can say that a gun is "more" deadly, but if someone is so angry that they try to kill you immediately, they're going to keep stabbing or bashing your head in until you're dead.

    If 3 or 4 men break into your house and all you have is a baseball bat, you're a dead man unless you have a lot of luck and a lot of training in hand to hand combat. I'm guessing most people don't.

    For an elderly person, a small woman.....they're done.

    As far as automatic weapons, which are legal in the US and illegal in France, we've had two instances in the last 70 years or so. One of those crimes was a police officer who legally had access to automatic weapons, so one of them doesn't even count.

    How many automatic weapon crimes has France had in the last 5 years?
     
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  15. mihapiha

    mihapiha Active Member

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    Migration has been a part throughout human history, and no people or country prevented a migration movement. Eventually the people who wanted to migrate, migrated to their chosen destination. If migration could be prevented you'd have far less Irish, Italian etc. people in the US. ;) Just to name an example from a century ago closer to your home...

    Nobody was saying that they should go unchecked, but thinking that we can prevent i.e. 20 million Syrians to crossing into Europe is just crazy. Ideally we can help them where they are, so they don't need to migrate further and can go back home. Unfortunately it is a difficult and complicated situation.

    If 20 million Floridians are forced in 50 years to move because of rising sea-levels no wall will stop them. If your choice is death or moving, you take your chances by moving. Legal immigration into most Western Countries is ridiculous anyhow. The process is way too expensive and complicated forcing people to choose alternative routs. Being accepted as a refugee is far worse. Translators working for the US military in Iraq go through years of vetting (while staying and waiting in Iraq) before they are finally rewarded for risking their life supporting US military personal.

    Oddly enough, I did look up the immigration process into the US, which was significantly easier being a PhD student at the time, yet they wanted me to spend 15,000 USD and wait for 3 months in the country for my application to be processed, in order to allow me to pay taxes. This seems stupid.
    If I show them that I have 500.000 USD they'd give me the green card without much paperwork at all. Great vetting process... :roll: I forgot how much you have to have in order to be fast tracked to a citizenship. But god forbid you'd want to come and just work and pay taxes.

    My point was, that most people can drive a car, but only a few can do so in critical and dangerous conditions correctly. Basically as you pointed out, there are way too many people who are irresponsible and they should loose their license. On par with that, I believe you that it's not hard to be able to handle a weapon, but I really doubt that most gun-owners would react calm and like poster-boy SWAT specialist if somebody went crazy in a shopping mall.

    I think it's more likely that you find irresponsible people, just as you pointed out with the car, who would get drunk and more likely shoot their ex or the neighbor's dog or something like that.

    It's worth pointing out that even though you have to learn quite a book and prove to some extent that you know how to use a car before you're given a license, it's not a reason not to be a car-owner and drive your car. There are also a ton of regulations on what a car has to do in order to be sold in the US. So I cannot see a license or regulatory limitations as "taking away guns". I think assault weapon bans are stupid. I think it be better if you'd just have to do a different license to prove that you can handle gun X or Y rather than the stupid ban. The reasoning is so dumb Like you can't achieve the exact same with a million other guns which happen to be legal...

    Anyways, I just wanted to point out, that I am not for restrictions in any way shape or form if you can prove training like yourself. However, I'd like everybody who's got guns to be able to prove that as well. I think taking guns away from irresponsible people ought to be in the interest of gun owners as well...

    I assume that as a Marine you did additional training after those two weeks in order to prepare you for a real dangerous situation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  16. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Up until the last shooting in Australia, which has a different gun culture, the mass murder per capita rate was similar. That means that it is only a matter of time before it happens again in Australia.

    Why is the ability to defend oneself and not be a serf so unimaginable?
     
  17. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Many countries are controlling their immigration. Japan, China, Eastern Europe. Hell, even Mexico has a southern border wall. It can be done.

    Countries that don't control their immigration are swarmed by people who come from failed countries. Why did those countries fail? The people in them. What benefit comes to a country that allows Somali's, for example, to swarm into their country?

    We have 35 years or so of CCW statistics. There are no "rivers of blood" flowing because of it. If anything, it's shown us that people walking around with guns are committing far less crime (of any sort), than the general public.

    For example, he's a crime by crime comparison between the general public, and concealed firearm owners in Texas. The difference is night and day.

    https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/LTC/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2016.pdf

    Your average firearm owner is not going to be leading SWAT teams, forming hasty skirmish left formations, or setting up FEBA's. They're armed to provide for their own safety, and the safety of their families.

    That role does not take a lot of training.

    Your car analogy isn't a good one. The requirements for the cars are for safety reasons to ensure that the vehicle is visible, doesn't have catastrophic failures at speeds, things like that.

    All the safety requirements in the world didn't stop the Islamic terrorists in France from using a truck to intentionally plow into a group of pedestrians.

    Anytime you're walking on a sidewalk, crosswalk, or anywhere a car is, the driver of a vehicle could easily kill you if they wanted to do so.

    Taking something away from everyone because some cannot be trusted is a dangerous precedent.

    I'm glad though that you see some of the logic in the topic already though, I just think maybe you have an unrealistic fear of firearms due to not being around them maybe.

    And yeah, as a Marine, you get training in tactics and things like that, but not general gun safety, handling, and how to shoot. The training is how to act as a unit to engage other units. That's not something a single person with a gun is going to be worrying about anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  18. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Every advanced culture is a gun culture.
    Since America is the greatest country on the face of the Earth AND the most richest and compassionate, and, we have the 2nd amendment, apparently a 'gun culture' is the best culture for human beings. Fire kills too but no one singles out any country as a 'fire culture.' Knives kill people yet which country is called a 'knife culture?' (OK maybe Japan...Samurais and all). Anyway does anybody get my point?
     
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  19. papabear

    papabear Active Member

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    You have misintepreted the sentence.

    The sentence means in countries where police dont have guns, homicide (murder/mansalughter) by gun is markedly lower, from the population as a whole. Not just the police force.

    Now if the misinterpretation was made by someone who supports gun regulation you would get about 200 pro gun people abusing them for being liers / manipulative yadda yadda yadda.
     
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  20. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well yeah, because in general when even the police don't have guns, you can be certain the general populace doesn't have them.

    My point was that they're just talking about "gun" murders, in places where there are few to no guns to begin with. When you look at "non-gun" murder in those "top countries without guns", it blows our murder rate out of the water.

    What's the point to having a lower "gun" murder rate, when your "non-gun" murder rate is 20 per 100k?

    Here's a graphic of the 19 countries they're talking about btw.

    Has anyone ever heard of Kiribati, Niue, Tuvalu, or Vanuatu? I certainly haven't.

    The frickin Virgin Islands murder rate is 35.5 per 100k.

    Good thing their police aren't armed :roll:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  21. Jestsayin

    Jestsayin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Personally, I don't care about the rest of the world. I am grateful for the second amendment and I exercise that right on a daily basis.
     
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  22. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    its actually about 6-7% that commit those murders. Black females aren't causing much murders at all
     
  23. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    Thread winner. I so tire of people who say the USA ought to be like other countries
     
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  24. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    And it's only about 0.02% of that 6-7% that are committing homicide.
     
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  25. papabear

    papabear Active Member

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    I agree with the argument that the murder rate should be taken as a whole

    if you have a gun murder rate of 10/100 and a total murder rate of 20/100
    That is pretty much the same on a humanity level as a gun murder rate of
    1/100 and a total murder rate of 20 /100
    The gun free place isnt doing any better

    To be fair though its more of a question of measuring countries against others of similar levels or culture to yours.

    Thus if you are measuring america against PNG or indonesia, then you have problems. I know I sure as **** dont measure australia against PNG or indonesia.
     

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