Start with the 14th Amendment, SCOTUSblog.com, justia - its all there. Or, there are many other sites you might want to look at. Or not. My own favorite is the SCOTUSblog. If you are against a woman's right to own her own body, I would think you would be more knowledgeable. Especially if you want the state to have a say in or control of our most private and intimate life decisions. You say your OPINION is that a fetus is a person. You're very welcome to hold any OPINION you wish but disagreeing with an OPINION does not make me "wrong".
If you want to participate in a discussion, then discuss the topic at hand, not what you wish the topic to be. If you want to talk about some other aspect of abortion, go for it. I've posted many times on the legal, medical, moral aspects of abortion. Before you start whining about knowledge, and start asking questions that have already been answered, search the forum and get up to speed. Of course its my opinion, that's what this forum is all about - people debating opinions. Duh.
Of course its my opinion, that's what this forum is all about - people debating opinions. Duh. See how that works?
"Making the issue one of "wanted or unwanted" rather than an issue of responsibility for ones actions and the status of the unborn baby, is very self-centered." Not really true at all. Those who are against abortion conveniently ignore that they are demanding that unwanted children be born. Most abortions are medically necessary and mean that a family is broken by an unspeakable loss. A smaller percentage are simply unwanted. The reason for the abortion is the business of the pregnant woman and no one elses. ".. it does not matter whether the pregnant woman wants the baby or not.." Of course it matters. Do you know what happens to unwanted children? Do you know how many orphanages there are in the US now? Do you care? Of course you don't. You care about fetuses. How many have you adopted? Yeah. That's what I thought.
If you throw a bunch of those """FACTY"" things at this poster expect to be ignored.....he doesn't believe this forum is for discussion, just for him giving speeches unchallenged......and the destruction of women's rights... He also refuses to acknowledge the fact that IF the fetus was deemed a person it would firm the defense of abortion.....no person has the right to use another person's body to sustain their life...only the destruction of women's rights could change that so I think that's what he wants..
Be nice to see you mature enough to respond to my posts and the others that contain facts that prove you so wrong......
First of all, men are helplessly accountable and many women are looking for a “baby daddy”. As the conversation moves to murdering children, I have to bring you back on topic as no one is arguing in favor of that. Should we require pregnancy tests to women before boarding a plane? If they should return from their trip claiming they had a miscarriage, then what? Do we force them to undergo a medical exam to prove they did not have an abortion? The more we think this through, the more we realize that there is zero value in any law restricting abortions. ZERO! Most cannot afford to travel, so they will find something local. This will create powerful criminals who will defend their source of income by whatever means necessary; Even murder. Lessons from prohibition and the war on drugs should not be ignored. Muslim countries can get away with restricting abortion. While I may personally feel that it is wrong, there is no place in a free society for pointing a righteous finger at a pregnant woman demanding she live by my values.
Sometimes scientific facts aren't the only important issue. As long as abortion is an option, we should be glad there's counseling and other options out there.
The discussion in progress assumed that the fetus is a person and was about if restrictions can be enforced and if there would be a benefit to society. My position is that efforts to save these unborn children through laws will not only be ineffective, but would be bad for society by providing income to criminals. Further, when we allow the government infringe on our rights, they always tend to overreach. Just like the left infringing on my second amendment rights. I am sure they have good intentions, but any restrictions can only help criminals.
Not quite sure what you mean ....no one should need counseling for an abortion any more than they need counseling if they're going to have a baby.....and the options are all the same for both.
Wrong. 1987 data from http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html 7% of abortions were medically necessary, 90% for convenience, 3% other/unknown 2004 data from http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html 8% of abortions were for medical health reasons related to the mother, 14% out of concern for possible health issues of the fetus, at least 78% of abortions were for convenience Guttmacher Institute 2005 study https://www.nrlc.org/archive/news/2005/NRL10/NewStudy.html "92% of Women Cite "Social" or "Other" Reasons" for having an abortion Read the thread before posting. As I have already stated, we adopted one child from a pregnant 18 year old who was going to have an abortion, and are in the process of adopting another from a pregnant 25 year old who was going to have an abortion. We also work with a national religious organization fostering neglected and abandoned children, and in particular counsel teens who run away from home. Stop making a fool of yourself. Read the thread before posting.
It wasn't as discussion about if the fetus is a person since the poster refuses to acknowledge that "persons" have restrictions.....no, his argument , like all Anti-Choicers, boils down to attempts to restrict pregnant women, take away their rights and make the fetus some untouchable god...
We got that. For the sake of polite discussion, I gave him the benefit of being right across the board. Lets say it is a person and abortion is now murder; Now what?
I would expect the same thing as others who think it's so simple to call it murder but can never answer questions like: How do you suspect an abortion has taken place? Where is the body? Where is there evidence that there was a body(person) to start with ? What evidence of any kind would there be? How would doctors determine if the woman had an abortion or a miscarriage and will all women who have miscarriages, and report it to their doctor , be forced to be examined? Do you want women to be put to death or imprisoned for life? (Or stoned to death?) (No, it won't be just the person performing the abortion since people who hire hitmen get charged with murder, too) So far in all the debating no one has ever come up with an answer...I doubt they will now. And why should a fetus have more rights than the woman it's in.
I remind you of the assumption which you agreed to - that the unborn was a person - in order to move the conversation into the consequences of restricted abortion. If the unborn baby is a person then it has all the rights and protections of any person, and killing the baby for convenience is murder. On pregnancy tests - pregnancy tests are not required before a woman travels out of the country, no "pregnancy registry" is to be created. If a woman and her child leave the USA, and the woman returns without the child, there are no automatic investigations, there is only an investigation if there is evidence a crime has been committed - for example a family member contacting police. People are innocent until proven guilty. On powerful criminals - you assume there will be a huge demand for illegal abortions, there is no evidence pointing to that outcome. The claim that illegal abortions were rampant pre-Roe is a propaganda, there were some but not nearly as many as the abortionists claim. Muslim countries - irrelevant. Again, I remind you the mutual agreed to assumption is that the unborn is a person. I know you don't agree with that assumption, but I assume that if the baby is a person then you do not support murder, and murder is what abortion for convenience is under the assumption. And to claim you would not demand people live by your values is pure hypocrisy. Would you point your finger at a woman and demand she not murder her teenager? Would you demand she not steal your money? Unless you advocate pure anarchy, then you do demand people including pregnant women live by your values.
As that post was very short and just above one that I read, I saw yours and I will respond to it: I don't bother reading your posts any longer as you always immediately resort to name calling and ranting as soon as I reply. There are other much more interesting people in the forum.
I haven't called you a name but you sure found an excuse to avoid all those Inconvenient facts and questions( what you call "rants" ).... That's OK, anyone else can see you can't address them so don't have a genuine argument......
Right. We are assuming laws against abortion for convenience are in effect and are discussing the “Now what” stage. I’m glad we agree that there should be no pregnancy screening at airports and no pregnancy registry. This law now has zero effect on those who can afford a plane ticket. That leaves the poor. They face choices like, attempting to do it themselves, taking strong drugs, or having someone less competent than a doctor perform the procedure. If their life is at risk due to an infection, how likely are they to go to a doctor, knowing that they face murder charges? It is more than safe to assume that laws do not reduce demand. Drug users never seem to have any trouble getting drugs. This is extremely profitable for gangs and cartels. (Who sell to children and commit murder) I can demand that a mother not murder her teenager. (Not that I would blame her for wanting to!) That is reasonable. I can demand that she carries her pregnancy to full term, but who is she? How do I find her? How many hours will I spend searching, investigating, and prosecuting? Who took drugs? Who took a trip? If we dedicated the same resources as we do for the war on drugs, will society be better off? What is the best possible outcome? A few poor women in prison. There are currently thousands of unwanted children that will never see the inside of a loving home or know what it feels like to be cherished. Imprisoning the few unlucky poor women who came to the ER with a life threatening infection does nothing to solve the real issue. We can agree its wrong and assign any term you wish. You still cannot make a case that there is a way to make a law that somehow makes a positive difference.
You mean I can't convince you that outlawing abortion for convenience is a positive change. I do believe that such a law will reduce the number of abortions and unwanted pregnancies, there is no organization that claims the rate of abortion before Roe was nearly as high as it is post-Roe. The rate of abortion started climbing in the 1960s as states began legalizing abortion. The "unwanted children" argument does not justify killing. How many people would say that because their lives are difficult that they would rather be killed, that they would truly rather to have not been born? A few would, but not many. And are you going to extend your policy to all people who are unwanted or a burden on their family - and it wont be long before such an attitude was extended to society, those who were a burden to society should be eliminated? Drugs are not the same as abortion (murder). I actually oppose the war on drugs, people should be allowed to engage in activities as long as they do not harm others, if a person wants to drink/smoke/etc, that's their business not the govts - until it harms other people (drunken driving, fighting, theft to support a persons addiction). All abortions harm another person.
If only you could sing another tune, the same old crap repeated doesn't make it less crap. Only a misogynist thinks taking away women's rights is positive. Abortion doesn't harm a person since it isn't a person and abortion has never harmed YOU yet you insist it has.... How asinine to say that being killed by a drunk driver is so much better than being aborted....
If someone is struggling with whether to have one or not...counseling/talking it out with a neutral person is a wise thing to do. If I remember correctly...planned parenthood offers before and after counseling. Who the woman decides to talk with...is their choice. I have no doubt someone might shame a female into continue with a pregnancy...there's all kinds out there. After the abortion although there is probably relief...its not like having a hang nail removed. SOME might feel some guilt and sense of loss. Having a baby is a whole other plate of beans. you might need a small army of help. lol
Oh, I'm not against voluntary counseling.....but as I said, ""no one should need counseling for an abortion any more than they need counseling if they're going to have a baby..."" Sure a woman who has an abortion may feel some guilt or loss, like any other life decision we all make. We all can ask for counseling but the right has suggested forced counseling only for women wanting an abortion and I am against that.
And what are you hoping to accomplish with that irrational post? That's why I have been ignoring your posts, and I will go back to ignoring them since you obviously are still just as boring as ever.
And you are as ever unable to answer pertinent questions The ONLY thing you do is whine about me.........simply can't answer those INCONVENIENT questions...can't address the topic....all you do is post about me.....that's like hiding from the truth. I'm boring? You keep repeating the same erroneous garbage as if you think you repeat it enough it will come true....a fetus still isn't a person and it wouldn't matter if it was, abortion would still be legal
