UK Police - Is 8 minutes an acceptable response time?

Discussion in 'Security & Defenses' started by chris155au, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One might, but I'll bet 50 wouldn't.
     
  2. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I thought you were implying that it took them 1 or 2 minutes to arrive after the first emergency call. Where did you get "1 or 2 minutes" from by the way?

    Yeah, that's ALWAYS the case! That's why they would've been called in for this incident, even if all London police had guns. My point is, they shouldn't be the FIRST line of defence! The officers who ran away from the area as fast as they could are certainly not the first line of defence! F*ck that's embarrassing. What a joke, especially if they were male officers. I guess I shouldn't be surprised given their pacifistic training.

    I'm not saying it definitely would have. I'm just saying that it is highly likely that it would've ended sooner and I think so would you if you were being honest. After all, you seem likely a pretty rational person.

    You're saying that it is not even possible?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  3. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if you would say that to the victim's families, the victims who were killed after an unacceptable period of time of the attackers still being alive and killing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  4. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    None of those are going to work against multiple attackers.

    The police aren't there to protect people. That's not their purpose. They're there to maintain order, and enforce the law. A side benefit to that is increased safety.

    What always happens during riots and wide scale disasters: outnumbered police, loss of command/control/communications, and the police's own sense of self-preservation.

    Things would need to be REALLY bad before the police started firing into groups of rioters.
     
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  5. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Depends on where you live. According to one source I read the average is around 10 minutes give or take. In my city, first responders have a faster response time than the police, but we have a lot more fire stations than police stations. The first responders sometimes have to hold up nearby waiting for the police to secure the scene. In the county, the response time can vary but usually at least 45 minutes because they have so few officers who may not be anywhere close. That was about the response time when someone was breaking into a coworkers house with their kid home alone. Kid cracked the person in the head when they were coming through the window so they were long gone by the time the deputies showed up to accuse the kid of breaking the window and lying about an intruder
     
  6. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would have no trouble saying it to a victim's family. They are not supermen. They are humans with families of their own who chose to do a very dangerous job as best they can.
     
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  7. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah but it seems thats because most of them get away and are caught later, if at all.
     
  8. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  9. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know, I have been involved in three knife attacks working as a doorman, in all cases we disarmed them and waited for the police to arrive. One got me twice across the arm, I had great fun telling him what a pretty boy like him would be used for in jail, whilst I was holding him down.
    What was a disgrace was he only got six months inside. His ffg defence was I should of run away when he pulled the knife on me! He had done this to a couple of old people earlier in the week aswell.

    Nothing of course to compare with three determined attackers as in this case.
     
  10. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, did my question include "if, "but, or "maybe?" It was just a simple question.
    Actually, my country is Australia. I think we can be considered the middle ground between the UK and US. (Armed police but pretty similar citizen gun laws (I think) to UK.)
    Unfortunately.
    Look, I understand what you're talking about, the two different policing cultures. In the UK, its the basic idea that an officer pointing a gun can escalate things so a more pacifist approach is taken. And while this makes sense for dealing with a drunk who is acting violent and making threats, this same cannot be applied to a situation such as the London attacks. The difference is that they are terrorists who are simply just killing as many people as possible and they need to be killed in order to stop them from killing. No amount of pacifist philosophy in police practice can stop a terrorist attack. The question is, would arming all UK police be worth it just for dealing with rare situations such as the London Bridge? My answer is no, if the police are weapons trained like the US police. Obviously in the US, some of those dumb bastard officers could do with their guns being taken away. However, I see no reason why there cannot be a 'sweet spot' merging of pacifism and armed police and my feeling is that this is what we have in Australia, as we just don't have the sort of problems that the US does. Though we're not perfect of course.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  11. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    50 what?
     
  12. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I recall seeing it in the initial reporting at the time though I admit that I can’t find a source for it now. Basically, one of the armed response units happened to be right around the corner of where the attack took place so arrive on scene pretty much immediately following their being called.

    Assuming it actually happened. Lots of things were reported in the immediate aftermath – I saw talk of everything from one to half a dozen attackers for example.

    What is your knowledge and experience of UK police training? Biased assumptions have no place in this discussion. Also, if you think the fundamental basis of the training is so flawed, how would simply giving them firearms improve the situation?

    No, I’m saying I (and you) don’t know. You’re asserting that it’s “highly likely” the incident would have been resolved quicker but you’re not established any actual facts to back that up, just rumour and speculation.
     
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  13. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but do the London police have stuns guns and pepper spray? I would've thought that someone could take on one or two knifemen armed with these two things. If they had the balls that is.

    This is news to me. Is this the case with London police? This is contrary to many other police forces around the world. eg: "To protect and serve." (LA Police motto.)

    This scenario doesn't seem relevant to the discussion though. The LA rioters weren't murdering people like a terrorist.
     
  14. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    I don't think its possible to compare the police response in these sort of everyday situations to terrorist attacks, simply because the response time is between when the attack first starts and when the attackers are killed, whereas someone having to die to end an incident in everyday scenarios is alot less likely. I'm sure the response time in your city would be shorter than 10 minutes if it was a terrorist attack, simply because it would be given complete priority over anything else. In a terrorist attack, police who are dealing with everyday situations would immediately drop what they were doing and respond to the attack. What city?
     
  15. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First off, the UK police do not have a pacifist attitude, I have no idea how you equate unarmed with pacifist.

    If the UK police want general policemen to be armed then I would probably be right behind them, but most of the coppers I talk to do not want that. They do the job, not me, I will be guided by what they want.

    To say the police ran is a bit unfair, remember these guys had fake suicide vests on. It occurs to me that the very first thing you want to do with someone wearing a suicide vest is isolate them from the crowd, that means getting the crowd the hell out the way. So were police running or herding the crowd away, I do not know.

    There are an awful lot of things to consider before coming to the conclusion that general police should be armed, this is what I mean by if, buts and maybes.
     
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  16. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Vman, isn't the correct response to this that you were not talking specifically about knife attacks, but you were talking about terrorist attacks where the terrorists are trying to kill as many people as possible?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  17. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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  18. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think the police response time is based on who is available and where they are in relation to the scene of the crime. If someone is fifteen miles away, they are fifteen miles away.
     
  19. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Both.

    Knife attacks in London seem to be growing quite a bit, and from the reports I looked at the police aren't there when it happens. It happens pretty quickly, and they either get away with it or are caught later. I'm guessing thanks to the bazillion cameras London has.
     
  20. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pepper spray isn't as effective as you might think, and you'd be surprised how quickly someone can close distance and stab you.

    It's the case with all police. The motto doesn't mean they're there to protect and serve YOU, they're there to protect and serve the government. There have been numerous cases in the US where the courts have found that the police have no specific responsibility, and no liability, when they fail to protect a citizen.

    Yes, a number of people were murdered during the LA riots as well as during hurricane Katrina.
     
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  21. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yep, in cases where security is available like in bars and clubs. If someone gets attacked on a bus or walking down the street though it's over pretty quickly.

    Yeah for whatever reason there seems to be a suicidal tendency in western governments where they see the violent people in society as victims. It's one reason so many people get shot here. Someone shoots someone, goes to jail for a year or two, then gets out and murders someone. Happens all the time.
     
  22. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    With more and more explosives being used in terrorist attacks in Europe, expect this to become the standard response.

    No more even trying to close with and take them into custody. Take them down as fast as possible before they hurt others.
     
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  23. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do a runner in the face of personal danger, such as a terrorist incident on their beat.
     
  24. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Oh right, yeah of course. Out of 50 officers I'm sure there would be plenty of tough fighters. My point was based on if every officer didn't put themselves at risk to save others.
     
  25. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Well what would the philosophy be called then? It is rather unique on a world scale.
    Of course they don't want it, they've been trained to be against using guns!
    Yeah fair point I must admit. Look, I don't blame them if they ran as they have no realistic defenses! And that's the problem.
    Yeah of course, but I'm not saying that they should immediately become armed without considering anything.
    I would like to ask my earlier question again but in a different way: What is a more effective way to kill a terrorist? With a gun, or without a gun? To answer this question, you do not need to consider the "two different cultures, two different ways of dealing with things" which you mentioned earlier, because it has nothing to do with it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
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