Tell an Australian what the argument is against building a border wall.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by chris155au, Jul 10, 2017.

  1. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well, why factor out the cost? A border wall of the length we are talking about would necessarily be quite expensive to build, maintain and staff.
     
  2. tom444

    tom444 Well-Known Member

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  3. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    No. That's not the "myth". That's just a nonsensical statement. Because many U.S. natives are also criminals. The myth I'm referring to is that there is more criminality among immigrants (or even among illegal aliens) than among the general population.

    If they're born in the country, they're not illegal aliens. I believe you mean those who were brought here when they were minors

    I don't. Please explain.

    Fact checkers have looked at this to no end for years. They have looked at all sorts of studies. Here are their findings and references. Full disclosure: I have read some but not all of the cited studies.

    http://www.politifact.com/californi...-true-undocumented-immigrants-less-likely-co/
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/wh...umented-immigrants-commit-more-crimes-n777856
    https://www.policefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Appendix-D_0.pdf
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/07/12/illegal-immigrant-crime-wave-evidence-is-hard-to-find.html

    And even Trump's own ICE Director disagrees with Trump (who is the one who perpetuated this myth)
    http://www.businessinsider.com/do-immigrants-commit-more-crime-than-americans-trump-ice-2017-6

    Some Journalists on all news channels have a bias (left or right), but there is no bias for the media source itself. Their only bias is towards making money. MSNBC is owned by GE. CNN is owned by Time-Warner. Their "flagship" publication "Time Magazine" is known for it's mostly right-leaning editorial position. They'll report whatever makes them more money. Right now, Trump's tweets make them a boatload of money. So they'll report that 24 hours a day. When it was Hillary's email server, that was what got full coverage. Even the made up "scandals" about Obama that the right put out got much more coverage than they deserved, because they were profitable.

    So no. There is no leftist bias. There is also no right-wing bias either, like what we see on Fox. That's the reason why each journalist expresses their own personal right-leaning or left-leaning position freely. Unlike Fox journalists.

    http://www.collingwoodresearch.com/uploads/8/3/6/0/8360930/shelter_nopols_blind.pdf

    Yes. Absolutely racist.

    Already responded. So ares some Australians. So are some Americanas. So are some Inuit Indians. And probably so is Donald Trump, BTW, according to the law of some states. In others he would just a sexual "molester". But the point is that singling out Mexicans is, among other things, what makes him a racist.

    The rest is more detail than I care to debate, and more detail than what even Trump himself went into.

    No, but it's the only one in which they work for less than minimum wage. Which is what some claim is unfair to Americans. In other fields they compete with Americans fairly. As a matter of fact, they need to be exceptional compared to Americans, or they won't get hired.


    Yes, but then the employer would have to pay minimum wage, housing, meals, transportation, etc.

    I believe in tolerance, but there are certain things that should not ever be tolerated. One of them is racism. Especially after I have proven that there is no evidence that illegal aliens commit more of those crimes. And the evidence we have indicates that they commit less. I prefer productive illegal aliens in this Country than a racist slob any day of the week.

    11 million illegal immigrants who live in this country would beg to differ.

    I hope so. It's a despicable profession!

    Probably not a majority, but it's getting there.

    Nah. The original 700 mile fence (if I remember correctly), which passed with an ample bi-partisan majority was later changed to a combination "Physical/Virtual" fence about a year later. And even that never got finished.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  4. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, my mistake. If they were brought in as minors then they might as well have been born there in my view.
    For the sake of argument, imagine a city that had an illegal immigrant population of a majority of minors but this city also had the highest total number of illegal immigrants in the country, then of course this won't have any bearing on the crime rate. However, imagine a city which has an illegal immigrant population of a majority of adults who arrived in the country as adults. This city also has the LOWEST total number of illegal immigrants in the country. The immigrants who are committing most of the crime aren't minors or even minors who grew up in the country, its the ones who arrived as adults. And this is not able to be measured unfortunately. However, the US Government Accountability Office reports which I mentioned don't paint a very good picture and I noticed that you very conveniently avoided responding to that. Once again, they showed that judging by the numbers in federal prisons alone, non-citizens commit federal crimes at THREE TIMES the rate of citizens! I'm sure the vast majority of these are people who arrived as adults. And this is from a government office, not a "right wingnut think tank." Hopefully this clears it up for you. Please don't tell me that I need to be as metaphorical as you have been! I'm not that creative!
    I also don't see how any study on illegal aliens can be all that quantifiable. How do we know how many illegal aliens are in every city?
    They also focus non stop on the Russia story so why doesn't Fox News do the same if it makes so much money? And are you sure there was an equal amount of coverage on Hilary's emails on Fox, CNN & MSNBC? Surely not. People have been cut off air for discussing Hilary's email scandal multiple times! If you don't think that they had a clear agenda to get Hilary elected, then you are deluded.
    MSNBC is owned by Comcast now, not GE. And Time Magazine may once have been right leaning, but not anymore. Its pretty clearly centre or moderately left-leaning now.
    Do you know what page it is on where it produces stats specifically for illegal immigrants?
    Of course some Australian's are rapists. And they are dealt with by the Australian government. Of course some American's are rapists. And they are dealt with by the United States government. Of course some Inuit Indians are rapists. And they are dealt with by whoever the hell governs them. Now who should deal with Mexican rapists? The US government? If Mexicans's want to rape, they should rape Mexican girls in Mexico and be a problem for the Mexican government. Not American and therefore become a problem for a foreign government to deal with. No country should have to deal with another country's citizens. I notice that you very conveniently didn't respond to this part of my reply. Try to respond this time.
    He also singled them out saying that some of them are good people. Does that add to his racism? Racism is based on the belief that one race is superior to another. How did Trump say that Mexicans rape more than whites and therefore whites are better? He just said that some Mexican's are rapists, which is true. He would happily tell you that other races have rapists too.
    Yeah, they would have to obey the law and pay minimum wage. And why would they have to provide housing, meals and transport? That doesn't happen here, the backpackers are adults and can provide for themselves! Anyway, legal backpackers shouldn't have jobs taken away by illegal immigrants. You sound like a sensible person so I'm sure you'll agree.
    I was saying that no benefit which comes from illegal immigrants is worth it if one of those people rapes or murders someone. Better to have none of those benefits if a rape or a murder can be avoided. America is a great country and I'm sure it can manage without illegal aliens.
    Well not all of them will have crossed the land border to get in and those who did weren't able to do so because they were highly skilled at avoiding being tracked.
    What difference does that make if parts of it were virtual? It still got built didn't it?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  5. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    I'm factoring out the cost because that's an obvious argument and one which I can agree with to an extent because it will obviously be
    very expensive but so is the problem now, about 100 billion a year in fact! So I was looking for the other arguments against it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  6. Latherty

    Latherty Well-Known Member

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    The increasing disconnect between economic growth and wage growth indicates that there is indeed a problem of labor over-supply.
    I can't see how further immigration would alleviate that problem.
     
  7. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Then how in the hell do you expect us to understand what the hell you are talking about?
     
  8. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Rudd created our water wall?
     
  9. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Yeah okay, you said that you are a hard working dem. So what?
     
  10. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    But we are seeing income stagnation even in sectors where supply isn't keeping up with demand, such as STEM, so it isn't likely that over-supply is the culprit here.
     
  11. TrueBlueAUSSIE

    TrueBlueAUSSIE Newly Registered

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    i agree - many countries have civil wars going on - or intolerance of ethnic minorities etc etc

    Rather than allowing these people to be disenfranchised and forced to shift / i believe those nations causing the initial problem should have immediate sanctions placed on them stopping or helping to prevent them from having targeted or alienated people spilling over borders

    Thus this big problem of refugees would be resolved in the short and long term / the violent Mexican society has caused people to spill over into USA but as i said earlier MOST OF THOSE ARE NOT REFUGEES ..... THEY ARE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNISTS and should be rounded up and trucked back over the border / without delay

    BUILD THE WALL

    Apply a levy on all imports from Mexico and other South American countries who's peoples are illegally entering the US to pay for it
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  12. dadoalex

    dadoalex Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Try graduating 6th grade Jethro.

    If you want education go to school or educate yourself.

    This is not the place for you to learn English.
     
  13. Latherty

    Latherty Well-Known Member

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    DO you mean sectors or businesses?

    A business that has an unmet demand for skills will pay for them up to the extent that they can increase their own prices.

    So in the context that they are stuck with a price, they cannot pay more for wages.

    Theoretically, the price limit means that the economic demand for the product, and therefore the inputed labor is insufficient, and therefore there is an over-supply of that labor from a whole-of-market point of view.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  14. tom444

    tom444 Well-Known Member

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    Well than, you asked me why. So what?
     
  15. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    I sent four links citing plenty of studies that show otherwise. I don't think people in prison is a good parameter. They would include, for example, the Mariel immigrants, which was used by Cuba to dump all their criminals to us.

    We don't need to know the exact number. Just that there are more.

    Because Fox News is not Main Stream Media. They have a distinct right-wing agenda.

    Not sure what you mean by "equal". Obviously it was the main story on Fox. But, again, Fox does have a right-wing agenda. And they don't even bother to hide the policy.

    The New York Times was the main culprit for keeping the email server scandal alive after it became clear that it was just a Republican ploy to use taxpayer money to attack Hillary. Wnen the NYT started focusing on it and attracting readers, the MSM realized it was a money-maker.

    The statistics are on the last 9 or 10 pages, I believe.

    Of course! Just like when Americans go to Mexico to rape girls, the Mexican government has to deal with it. Which, BTW, has been a long standing problem for the Mexican government and many Latin American governments as there has been for a long time a big "sexual tourism" industry by Americans that involves even underage sex. The dark web is full of offerings of this kind.

    But that's how it works. There is no evidence whatsoever that any illegal immigrants who rape American girls is anywhere near that big a problem. As a matter of fact, you haven't even produced evidence that supports that illegal immigrants raping American girls is even a particularly significant issue.

    I probably didn't take it seriously given that the response is so obvious. I just gave it above. That's how international laws work. Jurisdiction over a crime resides in the country where the crime is committed. As far as I know, countries aren't usually inclined to give up their jurisdiction. Except in rare cases. One example being "El Chapo" Guzman, who was extradited from Mexico at the request of the U.S. government.

    You're trying to raise an argument on something that is not even an issue. I guess it's a way you came up with to excuse Trump's racism. But it just doesn't work at any level.

    That's the worst part of his racism. It completely ignores the reasons why people come here. The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants are good people. They come here because they are good people. They want to provide for their family, or are escaping drug gangs that want them to sell drugs in the streets, or from gangs that want them to join them...

    Worse! He said that some Mexicans are not rapists. I already responded to this Even if he meant that some were rapists. What reason other than to appeal to racism would anybody single out the very few Mexicans who are repists?.

    I've responded to this several times. But the discussion is irrelevant as Trump has made it clear in so many ways that he is a racist.

    It's part of the worker's visa program.

    Sure. But they don't.

    I fail to see how is a murder or rape committed by a legal resident is any better than a rape or murder. So the parameter is just silly.

    I'm sure it can "manage". But "managing" has never been good enough in this country. Our country owes much of its greatness to immigrants. Both legal and illegal.

    Or their Coyotes were. Despicable as they are, they know their business.

    The difference is that what Trump promised his base was not a "virtual" Wall. Even though I'm sure that "virtual" probably involves less court battles.
     
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  16. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    I mean job sectors.

    Again, this can't be the only factor impacting wage stagnation. We have wage stagnation even in job sectors where supply has not met demand.
     
  17. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    The problem is, this is YOUR VERSION of English, not English I'm afraid. Try again.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
  18. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Yeah and I sent you this: (which you conveniently didn't respond to.)

    "For the sake of argument, imagine a city that had an illegal immigrant population of a majority of minors but this city also had the highest total number of illegal immigrants in the country, then of course this won't have any bearing on the crime rate. However, imagine a city which has an illegal immigrant population of a majority of adults who arrived in the country as adults. This city also has the LOWEST total number of illegal immigrants in the country. The immigrants who are committing most of the crime aren't minors or even minors who grew up in the country, its the ones who arrived as adults. And this is not able to be measured unfortunately. However, the US Government Accountability Office reports which I mentioned don't paint a very good picture and I noticed that you very conveniently avoided responding to that. Once again, they showed that judging by the numbers in federal prisons alone, non-citizens commit federal crimes at THREE TIMES the rate of citizens! I'm sure the vast majority of these are people who arrived as adults. And this is from a government office, not a "right wingnut think tank." Hopefully this clears it up for you. Please don't tell me that I need to be as metaphorical as you have been! I'm not that creative!"
    Not a good parameter? Why the hell not? They have committed SERIOUS crime and/or are repeat offenders. All crime is not the same severity. By yours and the media's logic, if citizen criminals only stole bags of candy and non citizens raped and murdered, the citizens would be worse just because they committed more crime, just as the studies show. Its a bullshit argument.
    I'm afraid you have contradicted yourself, for the first time to be fair to you. In a earlier post you said:
    Now your are saying that Fox is right wing but CNN and MSNBC are totally non-biased? Come on man, be consistent! Earlier you used the term "corporate media" and now your using "main stream media" but I'm going to assume that you mean them as the same as eachother. So let me ask you - What makes a media outlet mainstream/corporate?
    Yeah, it was the main story on Fox. But are you going to say that the Russia story wasn't the main story on the others? I dare you to.
    So the MSM realized it was a money-maker? Except for Fox right, because they're not mainstream even though they ran the email story so much more than the others? Come on, get your argument in line.
    Except the difference is, American's are there legally. When a country allows non-citizens to enter, it does so accepting a certain amount of risk that these non-citizens could potentially commit crimes. It also allows them in with the proviso that they can only stay for a certain length of time. With illegal aliens, the country hasn't accepted them because they haven't been through the proper procedure. If American's raping Mexican's was a big enough problem for the Mexican government, them I'm sure they would introduce a travel ban. However the fact is, they haven't. The U.S on the other hand, HAS decided that it doesn't want mexican aliens.
    Not that it really matters, but I should have said ANY girl who is in the country legally, even if they are travelling. Anyway, why does it need to be a "big problem" or a "significant issue?" It doesn't need to be a problem at all! Even if none of them have raped anyone, they're still in the country illegally! The fact that some of them commit serious crimes only makes it that much more urgent that they get the hell out!
    I wasn't saying that countries can simply give up their international law responsibilities and not do anything! I was saying that no country SHOULD have to, but inevitably they do. A country should do whatever it needs to do to reduce the burden caused by another countries criminals and focus on its own criminals. It works on EVERY level!
    So part of Trump's racism is that he summarised what you said above by saying that some are good? Do you really think that Trump doesn't think that many good Mexican's want to provide for their family and/or escape the drug world? Of course he would know that, he knows how shitty Mexico is and he doesn't want even a small part of it in his country.

    Look, I'm sure that the majority of aliens are GREAT people, but unfortunately, its very difficult to separate them from the pieces of sh*t and as such it shouldn't be a reason to continue to allow them to come illegally at least not as it is now. I'm sure you don't think that it should continue as it is either, as you seem keen for that policy idea that you mentioned earlier.
    Its wrong to say that some Mexican's are NOT rapists? Why? And when did he specifically say this? You mean when he said some are good people?
    So backpackers are able to get jobs, so why aren't the locals?
    It isn't better, but the legal resident isn't responsible for all of those benefits of illegal aliens you've talked about.
    I'm sure this is true. However, its not a reason to continue with the problem as it is now. Again, I'm sure you'll agree.
    Wait, the aliens actually travel with coyotes? I thought you were calling the aliens coyotes because they were highly skilled at avoiding getting tracked.
    Sure, but you were the one who brought up the example of another border control project from the Bush administration. In arguing that Trump's wall will never get off the ground, you attempted to use it as an example of a border control project which was a disaster, but instead all you did was provide an example of a project that was a success!
     
  19. dadoalex

    dadoalex Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Still not here to educate you. You should have paid attention last year when they was teachin' you readin' and ritin'.
     
  20. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't WANT you to try to educate me on your ridiculous version of English.
     
  21. katzgar

    katzgar Banned

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    :fart:
     
  22. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh. You're still clinging to that Heritage Foundation nonsense?

    I did!

    I presented multiple links blowing the argument out of the water

    I said that measuring this simply as numbers of the inmate population makes no sense. I mentioned the Marielos migration. And there is also the fact that we take prisoners from other countries when they can't offer enough security. Like drug Cartel bosses.

    This spurious methodology has also been used by the Heritage foundation to exagerate the number of crimes that blacks commit. Which has been debunked many times. And this study combines numbers from a letter which doesen't even mention the origin of the data, with a sample of counties which are extrapolated to the whole population.

    Look... I wasted about 15 minutes of my life looking at this garbage. And only confirmed something that is a recurring theme in everything that comes out of the Heritage Foundation. Understand: the Heritage Foundation is not a Foundation at all. It's a private company used by the Republican Party to cherry pick data that can be used to fool people. And the same goes for the Cato Institute. They are just professional fake-information corporations..

    Explained on the paragraph you responded to. And again expanded on above.

    No!!!!

    CNN and MSNBC are very much biased. They are biased towards anything that increases their profits.. And, of course, I mean this as a policy at a Corporate Level. Anchors and reporters may have their own personal bias that might lean left or right. And that's fine so long as they don't lose objectivity. But there is no pre-established political agenda set at a Corporate level. The requirement to remain objective is much loser on media like Fox News.

    "Corporate Media" includes fringe media like Fox News. "Main stream media" does not.

    I'll repeat for the sake of clarity. Corporate Media is all the Media that responds to Corporate Interests. Right Wing Media is the one that has a political agenda set at a Corporate Level. Mainstream media doesn't have a political agenda set at a Corporate Level, but it has a "for-profits" Agenda.

    How could it not be? A major political Party clouded with foreign adversaries to meddle in our elections. And our own President obstructs the investigation. It's the most important news of the decade! Had it not been for 9-11, it would be the national story of the Century!

    Yes. Why? Do you have any questions? Before you make any, please remember that proper logical arguments have a directionality that cannot be inverted. I sense you are about to commit fallacy by doing exactly that.

    Red Herring. Not going to waste my time.

    Illegal immigrants come here to work. Not to commit a crime. The Americans I mention go to another country for the sole purpose of committing a crime. The issue that you raised about dealing with foreign racists has been addressed.

    Not to Social Security recipients who get paid, in part, thanks to their work Just one example.

    I disagree. The large majority of illegal immigrants just want to work. They're not even interested in staying. There used to be a work Visa such as the one you mentioned before. The immigrants were the "braceros". They would cross the boarder, work over the week, or for a month or... whatever lapse of time they were needed. And then they would go back. Braceros would register, earn minimum wage, they would need to keep a clean criminal record, and it was clear where they were in case they didn't. There was no "path to citizenship" or even residence, because they weren't interested. The only reason they don't go back now is that it would be difficult for them to re-enter. So they have to come with their whole family. The idea behind eliminating the Braceros Program was that Republicans (mostly) pushed the idea that they took away American jobs. But when the program was ended, it was clear that they didn't. That's when illegal immigration on a large scale started.

    No. The problem is that he doesn't. What if somebody were to say "Australians who come here are criminals, Rapists, and some, I assume, are good people"?

    Do you really think that Trump doesn't think that many good Mexican's want to provide for their family and/or escape the drug world?[/QUOTE]
    Oh... I'm sure he does. But he wouldn't talk about it in public because it would marginilize his racist base. He's a dirty politician. One of the worst demagogues we have ever seen.

    Exactly! His whole campaign platform and government policy can be summarized in "Harm foreigners and anybody who doesn't worship Trump" And he sticks to that even if it harms the country.

    Ok. Here is your problem: You have decided to believe the word of a pathological liar whose sole agenda is, as I said above, to hurt people. Illegal aliens are not, in any way, shape or form, "pieces of sh*t" They are all good people. As in any group, there is the possibility that some scum-bag creeps in. But the reason they come here is to work and provided for their family.

    All statistics show this fact. Criminality is not higher (everything seems to indicate that it's lower) than with any other group. So you can believe reality. Or you can believe the word of a real piece of sh*t who has been proven again and again to lie.

    It's that easy....

    June 16, 2015

    They don't want them.

    What problem are you talking about?
    The "Coyote" is the guy they pay to smuggle them into the United States. Normally they pay a flat fee that includes fake documents, transport, etc. A "high-end" coyote will warranty their work. They try several ways of bringing people in by land or air. And if one method fails, they try another. They even guarantee that if they are deported, they get another try using a different entry point or method.

    The Bush "wall" had bipartisan support. Trump's has bipartisan opposition. There has not been a project that has succeeded. I cited the Bush project as an example of the difficulties of a much much smaller project that had bi-partisan support. Chances of this project with so little support, in my opinion, are zero!
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
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  23. dadoalex

    dadoalex Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good luck with that Mr. "I don't know who the Waltons are."

    Your ignorance serve you.
     
  24. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    It's because a wall is not effective. There are many other entry points and can be used, and a border wall would not block access to them. It would be a huge waste of money. They tried to build a wall years ago, and it failed miserably.
     
  25. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    You're forgetting that I actually asked you what a "WALTON" was after you used the singular "WALTON." You're also forgetting that I know who The Walton's are as I mentioned in an earlier post. If you really think that anyone could get "The Walton's" as in the family from you saying "put a Walton in a federal prison" then you really are an idiot. Put a member of The Walton family in a federal prison? I mean, WTF?
     

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