Germany confesses ' special responsibility for Israel '

I am not debating AIPAC;s political influence. I am pointing out your characterization as controlling America and getting the US to fight wars or Israel is a gross exaggeration fueled not by fact but by animus.

Logically your premise would mean that AIPAC is the "puppet master" and the entire US government is the puppet. That is simply stupid.
If you examine the actual record you will see that a number of other far more influential lobby groups' objectives aligned with Israel's own
concerns and objectives. Of course anything but superficial analysis is an anathema to bigots

No, one cannot question the legitimacyof the standard holocaust narrative from a historic standpoint without actual evidence. The fact remains that the group clowns that have proffered such "evidence" are laughing stocks in the academic community.

The fact that there are billions of uneducated and ignorant people in the world, it is not surprising that there are all kinds of people who when informed of that narrative, find it beyond belief.

You can't persuade/convert a jew hater, nor any other kind of bigot, nor anyone with strong faith

Are you some how suggesting that monumental ignorance is validation of holocaust denialism? Seriously that is your argument?
Oh look there are so many human beings in the world that simply cannot comprehend such inhumanity, not to mention even more human beings being stupid, not to mention even more human beings that are ignorant of history and therefore denialism is legitimate. It is no wonder that denialists believe themselves.

Have you noticed that jews have a range of political perspectives just like christians? when jew haters point to jews criticizing jews it highlights how bigots that reject behaviors amongst the targets of their hate, can readily recognize and accept such nature within their own group.[/quote]

 

Poe's law is an adage of Internet culture stating that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, it is impossible to create a parody of extreme views so obviously exaggerated that it cannot be mistaken by some readers or viewers as a sincere expression of the parodied views.[1][2][3]

The original statement of the adage, by Nathan Poe, was:[1]

Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won't mistake for the genuine article.

 

I agree that the christian zionist visions of Israel and what Israel is today are substantively different. Qu'elle surprise.\

Yes the rights of palestinians were dumped on by Great Britain and the rest of the colonial powers of the then prevailing world order. Then their rights were further dumped on by their fellow arabs.

Er, ethnic/religious superiority is the same damn cess pool as jew hatred.

No, its not a european colony, it is one of literally dozens of nations that were originally european colonies , many of which were forged in the blood and fire created by the power vacuum of colonialism collapse.

While persecution is persecution, are you suggesting that there is an equivalency between persecution motivated by hate and jealousy and persecution motivated by national security? YOu do know arabs are Israeli citizens too, don't you?

 

QUOTE="Doofenshmirtz, post: 1068211383, member: 70377"]Interesting. If I sit back and let you blather, you end up doing the work for me. Your name calling and accusations say much more about you than me. You should start a thread about the pilots from 2003. That seems to be your "gotcha" issue. it only shows that there are people of conscience on that side. Where are the Palestinians standing up and speaking out against sending small children to throw rocks at
armed soldiers in hopes of a bloody image they can use to create people like you?

There are Arabs that like things the way they are. They are Israeli citizens.[/QUOTE]


RE:

Generally speaking, how many people feel that way do you think?

 

At any rate, I was not attempting to be condescending.

Now I know what "Poe" means

Thanks

 

I think all the Arab-Israelis think that way. Otherwise they would move to one of the neighboring countries.

 

No, I meant about name calling etc:

 

As a fellow bigot I have found that some people have a hard time in extending respect to somebody they believe is being intellectually insincere all the while espousing opinions that if one merely scrapes off the thin veneer of "academic interest" looks perilously close to the kind of crap that true bigots, such as jew hating scumbag nazi apologists, are constantly puking up. Hence name calling as an expression of both their intellectual and emotional contempt. Childish really but over the years I have learned to let the names bounce off while directly confronting the name callers with my own bigotry.

 

Oh. The answer is no.

 

Just the first thing I see on point with a google search

The majority of Jews in Arab countries eventually immigrated to the modern State of Israel.......
By 2003 they and their offspring, (including those of mixed lineage) comprised 3,136,436 people, or about 61% of Israel's Jewish population
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

Then there is the additional percentage of Israelis descended from Jews who have lived In Israel for generations. European jews and their descendants are probably a third of the population.

 

[/QUOTE]



I think that you maybe underestimate the influence of AIPAC and the many, many Zionist / Right Wing lobbies like it that are opposed by both non Jews & many Jews(1). Concern over their influence is based on fact & concern for America's best interests not animus toward Jews as some of their most vocal critics of Zionist / Israeli lobbies are Jewish. Additionally there's the "J Street" vs AIPAC conflict.

The veracity of the standard Holocaust narrative is no more or less debatable than any historical event unless you consider the tragic loss of one group of people more profound because of the ethnicity of the victims.
I think that it is equally flawed to dismiss the billions who both know about it & reject parts of the narrative as "stupid", "ignorant" especially since we don't know who many of them are or their backgrounds. I've talked to people throughout Europe who would qualify as "Holocaust survivors" whose stories conflict with parts of the current narrative & have no reason to disbelieve them.
Additionally, I don't see how questioning parts of the entire holocaust narrative is "anti Semitic" since so many diverse groups suffered horrific fates. To be honest, I believe parts of the official narrative but not the whole thing but don't want to further derail this thread with discussing / debating the holocaust.

Your operative term is "...strong faith". It's a long story but I did manage to dissuade a Jew hater /bigot or 2 in the Army partly by choosing a Jew as a "Jump mate" in paratrooper training. However, I agree that if someone's bigotry is deep enough, you're not like to change his mind. I'm just after the borderline cases.

Of course. That's what Pardo is talking about in the article I've cited below.(2) It's no different with American Jews.


(1) "Hundreds of Young U.S. Jews Protest Outside AIPAC Against Occupation"
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/1.779615

EXCERPT "This is the first time in AIPAC's decades-long history that such a protest, taking place right across the street from the influential lobby's annual conference, has attracted such a large – and mostly Jewish – crowd."CONTINUED



(2) "EX MOSSAD CHIEF: ISRAEL'S BIGGEST THREAT IS POTENTIAL CIVIL WAR, NOT IRAN"
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Po...threat-is-potential-civil-war-not-Iran-466415

EXCERPT "The most pressing threat to Israel is not Iran, but rather the increased polarization within Israeli society, former Mossad chief Tamir Pardo said in his first public appearance since leaving office in June.

“There is no outside existential threat to Israel, the only real existential threat is internal division,” Pardo said at an annual event to honor fallen Druse soldiers in the North.

In response to reporter’s questions, Pardo also addressed the Palestinian issue, saying that without a diplomatic solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict “we will never be able to achieve normalization with our Arab neighbors.”CONTINUED

 

Your opinions all of you debating this irrelevant topic as if Germany participating at this event are so blind. It honestly boggles my mind how such intelligent opinions can somehow manage to be stupid due to lack of critical thinking skills. Pull together all of the data strings or even just half of major events in the two years and this is just more bullshit from Germany. Brexit, failed Muslim immigration and integration policies, her party losing significant control parliament wise and her increasing every day plan of European countries losing their identity and becoming more under Germanys thumb. The sheer vitriol they are spewing at the UK right now should tell you something. It's an economic war of control as real as the last World War and its very effective.


Merkel is playing you. Throwing out a guaranteed red herring controversial argument thats got you all wound up with your academic arguments that don't *****. She's controlling the board. Meanwhile she's moving her pieces to exert even more German control over Europe. ( central bank head?) No one cares about Jews or the Palestinians. Just pawns. She's an economic Hitler and socialist Stalinist combined.

Gotta love Germany no idea how these fools do it. Lose one world War? Fine try again in 30 years.. Lose again? Fine fk it just come back 50 years later and take over Europe economically. At some point Europeans should just admit Germany is superior and just give up. Idiots.

Opinions here are even worse than the clueless euros.

 

No I dont underestimate it. Its you who are over estimating its influence. The fact that there is opposition to AIPAC is not in and of itself evidence of your specious claims of influence so great as to direct America to war for Israels benefit. That is simply crap and your fallacious argument holds no water.

Again, if you have some evidence to question the narrative then please present it. The fact is that the so called "evidence" of denialism is a pile of unmitigated garbage. Witness the fact that despite your repeated insistence of questioning, you have yet to present any evidence that would abrogate the narrative.

Not flawed at all. The facts are the facts, disbelief, ignorance and stupidity do not alter those facts.

this UN study specifically addresses this subject.

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0022/002287/228776e.pdf

Your anecdotal references to disparities in the narrative from survivors is meaningless without context and specifics. For instance many survivors still think nazis made human skin lamp shades. Those kinds of apocryphal myths are not relevant to the main narrative.

When the ignorance is strictly based on indoctrination and little or no cogitation, education and life experience can be effective.

then whats with your continued insistence on using political dissent amidst the jewish community as substantiation for your specious claims of undue influence over american sovereignty? actually that is rhetorical since we both know the answer.

 

Israel did not exist at the time. Resolution 181 allowed for the creation of Israel.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/un general assembly resolution 181.aspx

There are also numerous UN resolutions that Israel has agreed to.

 

Quit talking out your backside... making stuff up and pretending it is true. They are Israeli Jews.

Were done on this topic. You are just spouting any nonsense that comes into your head that you hope might support your position regardless of whether it has any basis in fact or not.

 

I thought you only posted fact, not opinion!!! There is nothing new or original about what you are doing. You resort to insults in hopes of dragging the discussion to your level because your position is weak. Instead of chasing you into the mud, I simply showed how your own posts support my side. Israelis rush their children underground while your side goads them into throwing rocks at armed soldiers. You claim its a 20 to 1 difference and I will take your word for it. It proves that your side hates Jews/Israel more then they love their own children. (On average, of course) Your name calling and attempts at insults don't change that.

When it comes down to it, no one thinks they can solve this conflict on a forum. For now, Israel will just have to contain the threat.

 

I agree that no one thinks we will solve the Palestinian - Israeli conflict on a forum or, so it seems, anywhere else unless both sides are motivated to live side by side in peace.

Such was the case long ago before the advent of expansionist Zionist Terrorist gangs when it was not uncommon to see Jews & Palestinian Arabs having tea together(1).

The problem as many Jews & non Jews see it is that Israel has no motivation to make a peace(2) that would hinder the relentless expansionism that is the agenda of Israel's hard line Right Wing Zionist leadership.
As long as the US continues its unconditional support of any act of Israeli criminality, most notably Settlement expansionism, there is nothing to stop this relentless seizing of Palestinian land(3)

The Palestinians, on the other hand do not like the status quo but feel powerless, angry & humiliated with their being ethnically cleansed from their land and that is why they lash out with stones & primitive rockets while life in Israel remains barely affected.

This conflict may not seem to be the problem of everyday Americans & Westerners but it is a factor that incites anti American / Western sentiment in the Islamic world. That anti Western sentiment stemming from America's support of Israeli expansionism then boils over to become anti Western terrorism which does affect everyday Westerners & Americans.
While there are other factors that incite anti Western terrorism, without a fair, just & durable resolution of the Palestinian - Israel conflict, anti Western terrorism will continue to plague our streets.





(1)“Top Ten Myths about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict”
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/06/17/top-ten-myths-about-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/

Myth #1 – Jews and Arabs have always been in conflict in the region.

EXCERPT "Although Arabs were a majority in Palestine prior to the creation of the state of Israel, there had always been a Jewish population, as well. For the most part, Jewish Palestinians got along with their Arab neighbors. This began to change with the onset of the Zionist movement, because the Zionists rejected the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and wanted Palestine for their own, to create a “Jewish State” in a region where Arabs were the majority and owned most of the land."CONTINUED

The British Hope-Simpson report of 1930 similarly noted that Jewish residents of non-Zionist communities in Palestine enjoyed friendship with their Arab neighbors. “It is quite a common sight to see an Arab sitting in the verandah of a Jewish house”, the report noted. “The position is entirely different in the Zionist colonies."CONTINUED


(2) "Israel Does Not Want Peace"

http://www.haaretz.com/peace/1.601112

EXCERPT "Rejectionism is embedded in Israel's most primal beliefs. There, at the deepest level, lies the concept that this land is destined for the Jews alone

Israel does not want peace. There is nothing I have ever written that I would be happier to be proved wrong about. But the evidence is piling up. In fact, it can be said that Israel has never wanted peace – a just peace, that is, one based on a just compromise for both sides.

The single most overwhelming item of evidence of Israel’s rejection of peace is, of course, the settlements project. From the dawn of its existence, there has never been a more reliable or more precise litmus test for Israel’s true intentions than this particular enterprise. In plain words: The builders of settlements want to consolidate the occupation, and those who want to consolidate the occupation do not want peace. That’s the whole story in a nutshell."CONTINUED


(3) "Revealed: Nearly 3,500 settlement homes built on private Palestinian land"

http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page//.premium-1.808442


EXCERPT "These illegal structures could be legalized under Israel's contentious 'land-grab' law, whose validity is now being determined by the High Court of Justice

There are 3,455 residential and public buildings built on private Palestinian lands in the West Bank, according to Civil Administration data. These illegal structures could be legalized under the expropriation law, whose validity is now being determined by the High Court of Justice in response to Palestinian petitions against the law."CONTINUED

 

Germany murdered around 6 million Jews.

so yeah, they owe us

 

I agree that peace is a long way off. I agree that the right wing zionist;s vision of peace includes annexation of the entire west bank. I also agree that the settlements are out and out land theft.

I agree the palestinians feel angry, powerless and humiliated, but I totally reject your ridiculous 'ethnic cleansing" causation for their pathetic plight. History has clearly demonstrated that both the arab league and corrupt incompetent palestinian leadership massively contributed to the clustermuck.

Intransigence cannot be overcome and peace cannot be achieved without trust. Something that neither side extends to the other.

 

How much more do "you" want given the fact that Germans built virtually all of Israel's initial infrastructure including steel mills, 3 power plants complete with grid work, Israel's railway & trains to go on them, 60 ships, water treatment plants, free weaponry that ensured Israel's survival in 1967 &1973, untold billions much of which has been fraudulently handled(1) & much more.


“The Reparations Agreement of 1952 and the response in Israel”
http://web.nli.org.il/sites/NLI/Engl...Agreement.aspx
EXCERPT “As part of the reparations, many goods reached Israel which helped the state economy to stabilize over the years. For example, Israel received new-fangled German-manufactured trains, which were operated for a number of years by the Israel Railways”CONTINUED


“Inside the Germany/Israel Relationship”
http://www.momentmag.com/inside-germ...-relationship/
EXCERPTS “Federal Republic of Germany laid the groundwork for Israel’s infrastructure—including roads, railways and shipping—while simultaneously rebuilding West German industry.

In addition to money, Israel also needed weapons. As early as 1954, German reparation funds were secretly being used to buy patrol boats, tanks and arms. Germany itself supplied Israel with weapons through a variety of back channels. Many details remain untold, but a 2006 U.S. Congressional Research Service report concluded that German-supplied arms “played a considerable role” in building up Israeli military might in the wars of 1967, 1973 and 1982."CONTINUED


“German-Israeli Armaments Cooperation”
http://www.bits.de/public/articles/cast06-02.htm
EXCERPT “Israel profited from cooperation by having a reliable and quick source for spare parts and complete weapon systems – even in times of war, when other nations like the United States, Great Britain and France were more restrictive in supplying arms to Israel. Another advantage was the willingness of the German government to pay for these exports to Israel."CONTINUED


(1) "HOLOCAUST CLAIMS CONFERENCE FRAUD LIKELY ‘MUCH HIGHER’ THAN $57 MILLION"

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Holoc...aud-likely-much-higher-than-57-million-408298
EXCERPT "Writing to the Claims Conference’s board last week, recently terminated ombudsman Shmuel Hollander asserted that, while reports had said organizational insiders had siphoned off $57 million in German taxpayer funds meant for survivors, “the final sum is in all probability much higher.”CONTINUED

 

Good, we agree on some things but not others. I also agree that the Palestinians have had some dismal leadership but a ethnic cleansing is the only term that that accurately describes the Nakba and was the cornerstone of Plan Dalet that was implemented by the Zionist terrorist gangs that committed heinous atrocities & mass murder

I know that you're aware of them but can't understand why anyone would reject such bloody horrors as "ridiculous " especially when they hold such strong views on the Holocaust

 

I am well aware of the history of the conflict. I am well aware that the victorious Israelis forced many arabs from their villages. I am also well aware that many arabs in response to AL urging and the fact that gettin outta dodge when tanks and guys with guns are arguing who owns dodge is a smart thing to do.

Shall we debate the atrocities that the arabs perpetrated? Shall we discuss the oppression of jews in palestine by the mufti and his gang?

And you certainly aren't actually trying to imply some equivalency in either intent or scope of the conflict between Israel and the arabs and the Nazis attempts to exterminate the jews are you? Nah there isn't anyway you could be that intellectually bankrupt.

 

If only giving land would bring peace and not more terrorism. Palestinians could be a thriving people with the right leadership. As of now, they are a threat and have made it necessary for Israel to contain them.

 

Relax, I'm not equating Israel to Nazi Germany however I think you are minimizing the effect that the ongoing Nakba is having on Israel's reputation as some Jews refer to Gaza as a Concentration Camp(1) & trivializing the atrocities committed by Zionist terrorist gangs.
I think what has & is being done to Palestine's native residents is, indeed ethnic cleansing as does much of the world (2)
While I'm not equating the holocaust with the Nakba, I don't see how you can be so vehemently defensive of one & dismissive of the other




(1) "Gaza is a concentration camp, and it’s an American delusion not to recognize that"

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/concentration-delusion-recognize/

EXCERPT "Lawrence Weschler, a writer of considerable mainstream prestige, is sick of prevaricating about Israel. It’s rabid. It has rabies. And Gaza is a concentration camp. Weschler has let loose chiefly because of the “remorseless” and “repetitively compulsive” aspect of Israeli violence. I believe that understanding is now widely shared in the liberal mainstream, and interventions like Weschler’s make it easier for others to speak up."CONTINUED


(2) "Israel Outraged That Countries Object to Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians"

https://www.corbettreport.com/israe...s-object-to-ethnic-cleansing-of-palestinians/

EXCERPT "More specifically, the Security Council passed Resolution 2334 last week, condemning “all measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, including, inter alia, the construction and expansion of settlements, transfer of Israeli settlers, confiscation of land, demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians, in violation of international humanitarian law and relevant resolutions.”CONTINUED

 

My grandparents lived through the war in Europe. As a doctor my grandfather had many Jewish colleagues. None were sent to concentration camps or mistreated.

When you read Anne Frank's Diary remember that her father was a collaborator who sold war materials to the German Wehrmacht occupying Holland.