U.N. Votes 151-6 to disavow Israeli ties to Jerusalem :0

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by vanityofvanitys, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Wrong.



    PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas:"I demand [the release of] prisoners because they are human beings, who did what we, we, ordered them to do. We - the [Palestinian] Authority. They should not be punished while we sit at one table negotiating. Besides, they spent many years in prison. How much longer? Do they have to spend all their life in prison and even die there?"

    And, while we're at the "negotiators' table", let's check why do Palestinian Arabs want East Jerusalem so much. Hint: it has absolutely nothing to do with the number of Arabs living there, or places sacred to Muslims.

    Abbas Zaki, member of Fatah's central committee and former ambassador of PA in Lebanon, interviewed by al Jazeera:



    But sh...don't tell it to the world...

    Spare me the worn out "but it's a former Mossad...".

    First, being a former Mossad doesn't make a villain, or an untrustworthy lying creature. It makes, however, better informed people. Believe it or not, but former Mossad are normal people.

    Second, neither Mansour al-Hadj, formerly from Saudi Arabia, nor Tufail Ahmad, British journalist of Indian origins, both members of MEMRI staff, ever competed for the "most wanted spy" title (you can't possibly believe that all that work is done by one person alone...). The "bad Mossad comin' to eat me" pathetic excuse is the argument of those who have no real arguments left.

    Third, the source is not MEMRI, but al Jazeera. MEMRI just translated it for us unhappy non-speakers of Arabic. Should MEMRI mistranslate or lie about an al Jazeera article, they'd have their collective arse handed to them in a court of law.

    Well?
     
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  2. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    I don't think Israel was ever a significant power in the region.. It was nothing more than a whistle stop on the trade route.. in bandit territory.
     
  3. Dutch

    Dutch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My, how did times change... :applause:
     
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  4. Dutch

    Dutch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    :wall:
     
  5. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, if russia voted with the US on this, and was one of the 6 votes, for the trump haters and the tin foil hat crowd, this must mean that trump and putin colluded together to beat hillary! So easy to predict what the faux lib dems would say. Just more hard evidence of collusion is how they will see this. But if russia did not vote with the US, that is proof too of collusion, for putin would vote against the US to prove he didn't collude with trump. Again, so easy to predict what the faux liberal dems and MSM will say and promote it.
     
  6. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I said I did not respect your position as I read it. I have respected you certainly till now. ;)
    Without Israel it would have been given to Hussein Bin Ali as was promised by the British in return for him arranging for his forces to fight the Ottoman Empire. The people would have just carried on living as they always had and progressed as people do. It is true that this would have just been attached to the rest of his territory that there would not have been a State for it separately unless they had decided they needed it. During the Ottoman Empire this area was a number of districts largely self governing though also interacting with each other. I imagine something of this nature would have continued.

    I think one of the problems in this is that people tend to look at this through Western eyes. Were they a State. No. Then they are land for Western Colonisation and no one has the right to complain. The Church of Scotland has admitted that one of their people, Rev Alexander Keith is probably responsible for the saying 'a land for a people for a people without a land' and explained that this was just because at the time the West believed that a land was 'empty' if Western power and culture was not there.

    http://urcthamesnorth.org.uk/wp-web...-Inheritance_of_Abraham-2013-report-28229.pdf

    This sort of thinking seems to persist with people who believe the people who had been living there some of them probably for thousands of years are not thought to belong to the land. I think it is imperialist thought - what I was not respecting earlier:) I am not an imperialist nor a person who believes in Colonialism hence we clearly will not agree on this. The land belongs to people who have lived in it for as long as anyone knows and that was the situation with the vast amount of Palestinians who although they did not have a State related to one another more than to any other people.

    On whether the land belonged to the people whose ancestors had worked it for as long as we can know I say yes, you appear to say No. Whether the Palestinians would suffer had not the Israelis come again I would say the probability is strongly No. Did they suffer, were they thrown off the land because of Zionist Colonialism the answer is very much so.
    Again you are mixing up the idea of people living in another part of the world being able to stay where their ancestors have lived for as long as we realistically know to a Colonialist idea that you can pick them up throw them out of their territory and put them somewhere else.

    see what I say above. This is not true.
    No one has ever denied that Jews were a part of Palestine. A very small part until European Jews decided to colonise, and they did at that time call it colonisation, in the late 18th C about 3-5%. In addition to that many of the native Jews fought fiercely with the rest of the Arabs against the Zionists and were as much a target of Zionist terrorism as anyone else.

    In addition re the genetics, which I have spoken about elsewhere, I remembered this after mentioning I had been to Israel. When I was there one day, do not ask why because I cannot remember, I was in some kind of truck and there were also IDF in it. We came to some kind of gate and some one dressed up like the IDF opened the gate and they exchanged greetings. 'Why do you have Arabs in your army?' I asked. He explained that he was one of the Jews who had stayed in Israel and never left...but he looked enough like the other Arabs for me to think he was an Arab. How is that for genetics when European Jews generally look European. Indeed at that time I thought all Jews were European - such was my ignorance.

    I believe it is too late for a two state solution. Israel had her chance but just kept on settling so that she cannot now move out without a civil war. I believe the Palestinians are the people who have the right to make the choice over this. If they choose a two state and by some miracle a way is found to create for them a State as was perceived in Oslo then of course I would support that. Otherwise I am for equal citizenship and equal rights for all the people who live there including Gaza. Some people have ideas of some kind of Federal arrangement and that might be possible but it definitely would require giving the Palestinians as good a deal as they agreed to at Oslo. By the way were you aware that a cornerstone of the UN's two state suggestion because that was all it ever was, but a cornerstone of that was that they would have a shared economy, it being believed that that would be likely to help to hold the peace. Some sort of Federal arrangement may be made. A Solution is possibly when the will is there and contrary to what people like to suggest the Palestinians very much want out of their hell. They want a workable solution. They just are prepared to resist for 300 years if necessary until they get that.

    Ok I am still going to have a dig and I am having that although not knowing what you said on that other forum. A lot of people criticise the illegal Jewish settlements but then go on to support Israel continuing which I think is what you are doing. I have yet to hear one person saying Israel has to do anything more than go back to before 67 lines and if you oppose settlement building then you really ought to be with those you seem to be against at the moment. Every problem comes from the settlements. Have a wee think about that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
  7. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Israel should return to the original gift of land in 1948 and leave the West Bank, Golan Heights and Shaaba Farms.
     
  8. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    It's clear that there is a point of debate already at the beginning of the history: the nature of the arrival of the Jews in the Land of Canaan in recent time. A return or a colonization?


    Clearly enough from this early evaluation our positions differ and it’s evident why.


    Since I see the return of the Jews as a return [otherwise why would I talk about “the return”?] I tend to interpret the reaction of the local Arab population as an overreaction … and the development of the historical events in my mind has read through the “return lens”.


    Probably, being Italian with German roots, but also Italian relatives from North East, influences me a bit about this. I don’t know if you know the history of the Italians in Istria who were forced to leave, to escape to the persecutions [and the genocide] perpetrated by Tito’s buddies as a kind of revenge against the Fascist “occupiers”. Actually Italians were there since the time of the Republic of Venice … in any case 200,000 Italians had to flee Istria.


    What if they return? [I guess that in Croatia and Slovenia they are switching the engines of their tanks on, just reading this!].


    What I’m underlining here is that Jews didn’t decide to leave the Land of Canaan, they had forced to leave. Now, also about this point I’m less traditional than others: the “Diaspora” was partial and involved a part of the Jewish population, but the remaining part got mixed with other populations and the Jewish culture had limited more and more while centuries passed. Btw, I’m with the ones who sustain that Palestinians and Jews have got common far roots in Middle East [in the Land of Canaan there was the differentiation of the Jewish people, with all probability].


    So, having two totally different starting points, it’s obvious that we read the following events in two different ways.


    I will be back about the settlements [it will be an interesting point to discuss].
     
  9. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Bahrain etc.
     
  10. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How many immigrants from those countries compared to immigrants from Europe and other non Arab countries ?? It's only ~ 15%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Statistics
     
  11. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    After the Jews were forced out of Spain and Portugal some went to Hebron and their integration into the community was without conflict.

    The difference may be Zionism.
     
  12. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Please compare apples to apples, Margot, then tie it into our present conversation. Who was a significant power in the years you are referencing?
     
  13. vanityofvanitys

    vanityofvanitys Well-Known Member

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    Why?

    So they can be an easier target for the never-ending rage of their neighbors?

    You seriously believe that would placate the haters of anything Jewish?
    Five Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948. So apparently it was never about the West Bank or Jerusalem or Gaza or the Golan Heights?
    They attacked again in 1956 and 1967. Again, it never really was about the West Bank or Jerusalem or Gaza or the Golan Heights, was it?
     
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  14. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    How many were they?

    It was when a good part of the Jews begun to move to the Land of Canaan that the problem came out [we all know, today, the problems connected with immigration]. It was unavoidable that a certain kind of competition [when not conflict] started. I wonder if the British authority had some possibility to manage better the process ...
     
  15. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    Reality is that they don't accept Israel. Period. And they haven't accepted it from the beginning. Regardless UN [which is useful or useless according to the convenience of the moment ...] in Palestine environments there is who doesn't accept the existence of a Jewish state.


    Remember the Hamas Charter …

    I quote from the initial part

    And again
    And ...
    And if someone is interested in reading the document: http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
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  16. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Many more debates around that. Joseph Massad, an intellectual working in this area said on a tape I listened to recently that early Zionists talked about it as colonising. They stopped doing that when it became uncool to colonise. You need to remember that at the time of the Balfour Declaration people were still into this. There was nothing socially unacceptable about it in the West.

    Here is the link if you are interested (ignore first three minutes)
    https://soundcloud.com/moderaterebelsradio/episode-9-zionism-anti-semitism-joseph-massad

    I believe that Weisman wanted put something like reinstatement in the Balfour Declaration. Britain would not have it but they did get it put on the League of Nations version which I recently read was written by Zionists in the States, if my memory serves me well. When I say Britain would not have it the people who I have read who were most against the Balfour Declaration were British and American Jews!!

    You need to remember the situation. These Jews were living in Europe. Europe was dividing itself up into ethnic Nationalist States and obviously the Jews wanted their own State, Christian Zionists had been wanting to get them into Jerusalem since they got their bibles and according to the Church of Scotland wrongly read them. The reason why Europe was so keen on dividing itself up into ethnic nationalist states was because it had become racist. Prior to that Jews were just Jews. They had a different religion and when they gave that up they stopped being Jews. However once the racism got started they became a semetic people, no longer white or European. Most Jews did not go along with this but the Zioinists did and all that is on that tape which I left a link to above.

    Obviously given that they believed also that Jews were genetically different from white people and had a desire to keep their 'race' pure, it made sense that they find a country of their own. Other things were suggested but eventually Palestine was taken as the one that must be.

    According to Massad the term antisemitism is only about 150 years old and goes with this idea of Jews being a different race rather than a different religion. Before that time of course Jews suffered oppression from Christianity.

    In addition to that there is something in their religion where they speak of going back to Jerusalem. I understand that prior to this, this was mainly believed to be concerning spirituality - being in a good place not thinking of actually moving. That being said some people used to go there particularly in retirement.

    There is going to be bits of truth most places. That after all is what ideologies are:) or as Marx said ideologies take a little bit of reality but they turn it upside down so that it becomes something quite different.

    Hmmmmmm. Well I hope you can imagine that nothing is so simplistic. I believe the Palestinians originally saw them as European Jews coming and working in Palestine. These first people were well received because they worked with the indigenous people. Hence they created a situation from which everyone benefited. I've said before that if there ever was a time where Palestinians were returning to the area it would have been this.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Jewish_Colonization_Association

    The majority of Jews were not happy with Zionism, particularly Jews in the West. They considered it antisemetic and that they were part of the nation of the country they were living in. One of the ways in which Zionists tried to sell this to Jews was that it was not about a State but about a cultural home for Jews. The work of Pica went along with that.

    However when Jews arrived who believed they had a right to Palestine due to their race. Problems began. They did not want to share with the Palestinians, indeed they wanted them transferred out. Then the Palestinians saw them as European Colonialists. I have read that the Zionists made no secret of the reality they wanted to take over Palestine as a State for Jews, that is they wanted to replace the Palestinians as the people of their historic homeland so I hope you can see that the Palestinian people found this not at all agreeable.


    No, I am afraid I do not know about that situation so cannot comment on it. It is something which has happened to people over and over. Even Scot's in the clearances were forced to go and worked as indentured workers in the Americas. I remember reading them say when they were being put on the boats 'they are treating us like blacks'.

    Regarding persecutions and the reality that Israel became a State after the Holocaust. However the reality is that Zionists were not about forming a State to help refugees as you can get an idea from here
    http://desip.igc.org/desip/fromWhatPriceIsrael.html


    His book came out in 53 which I think is important as Chinese whispers tends to change things. I know he also worked in the State Department and think but am not sure that he was at the time of the UN Partition Plan.


    There is a difference with something which happened in recent history and has not been resolved and people claiming they are the descendants of people who they claim were forced to leave 3000 years ago so they are coming back and the people who have been there putting everything into the land for that 3,000 years had better get out.

    Ok and I would go that if they had done what originally PICA did and worked with the people and worked to build a Jewish Cultural Home including everyone they would have been well accepted and could have given a lot to the region. Even among the Zionists there were people who thought like this and that rather that try to be a European country in the Middle East separate from the Arabs, they should work to include them and have their intention to be part of the ME.

    The other questione is even about being exiled, and I read that you accept that it was partial but some people go further than this. They say the Romans never did that. It simply was not something the Romans did. Shlomo Sand believes that there was no exile. That Jews were, as they were, great merchants and as they were out and about stopping in this place and that they were exceedingly good at Proselytism and that is the reason for most of Europe's Jews. I have read Reform Jews speaking about this as well. How it was strong in Roman Times and was so effective that people on mass were becoming Jews which resulted in the Romans banning Jews proselytising.

    No, you have not convinced me yet. Even if you felt for people who had been evicted 3,000 years ago given that you accept that there are Palestinians who are the descendants of those who stayed, why would you give higher priority to those who had been gone for 3000 years than those who stayed? ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
  17. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    They disagree. So much for that.
     
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  18. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Agreed. Possession is 9/10s of the law. Besides, they won it fair and square when attacked.
     
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  19. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    AND Jordan ceded the WB to Israel by treaty.
    It doesn't matter who whines or how loud - under international law, the WB belongs to Israel.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
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  20. Dutch

    Dutch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why?
     
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  21. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    The HAMAS charter was changed long ago.. Funny how Israel helped launch HAMAS, isn't it?
     
  22. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Because it exceeds the land they were given. Israel destroyed over 60 Druze villages in the Golan Heights and Shaaba Farms is Lebanese.
     
  23. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."

    "The Arab states surrounding Israel are required to open their borders to the Jihad fighters, the sons of the Arab and Islamic peoples, to enable them to play their role and to join their efforts to those of their brothers among the Muslim Brothers in Palestine......
    Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.
    "

    Saying Israel helped launch Hamas is like saying a woman helped with her own rape by wearing a skirt.

    The Hamas charter is a call for all Jew-haters to unite.
     
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  24. Dutch

    Dutch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Winners-keepers; whiners-losers.
     
  25. vanityofvanitys

    vanityofvanitys Well-Known Member

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    None of these arguments are tenable. When it comes to Israel's existence, nothing that comes out of an Arab representative or narrative is to be trusted or is the least bit fair or humane.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/history-and-overview-of-the-golan-heights

    From 1948-67, when Syria controlled the Golan Heights, it used the area as a military stronghold from which its troops randomly sniped at Israeli civilians in the Huleh Valley below, forcing children living on kibbutzim to sleep in bomb shelters. In addition, many roads in northern Israel could be crossed only after probing by mine-detection vehicles. In late 1966, a youth was blown to pieces by a mine while playing football near the Lebanon border. In some cases, attacks were carried out by Yasir Arafat's Fatah, which Syria allowed to operate from its territory.

    Israel's options for countering the Syrian attacks were constrained by the geography of the Heights. "Counterbattery fires were limited by the lack of observation from the Huleh Valley; air attacks were degraded by well-dug-in Syrian positions with strong overhead cover, and a ground attack against the positions...would require major forces with the attendant risks of heavy casualties and severe political repercussions," U.S. Army Col. (Ret.) Irving Heymont observed.

    Israel repeatedly, and unsuccessfully, protested the Syrian bombardments to the UN Mixed Armistice Commission, which was charged with policing the cease-fire. For example, Israel went to the UN in October 1966 to demand a halt to the Fatah attacks. The response from Damascus was defiant. "It is not our duty to stop them, but to encourage and strengthen them," the Syrian ambassador responded. Nothing was done to stop Syria's aggression. A mild Security Council resolution expressing "regret" for such incidents was vetoed by the Soviet Union. Meanwhile, Israel was condemned by the UN when it retaliated. "As far as the Security Council was officially concerned," historian Netanel Lorch wrote, "there was an open season for killing Israelis on their own territory."

    After the Six-Day War began, the Syrian air force attempted to bomb oil refineries in Haifa. While Israel was fighting in the Sinai and West Bank, Syrian artillery bombarded Israeli forces in the eastern Galilee, and armored units fired on villages in the Huleh Valley below the Golan Heights.

    On June 9, 1967, Israel moved against Syrian forces on the Golan. By late afternoon, June 10, Israel was in complete control of the plateau. Israel's seizure of the strategic heights occurred only after 19 years of provocation from Syria, and after unsuccessful efforts to get the international community to act against the aggressors.

    Six years later, in a surprise attack on Yom Kippur, the Syrians overran the Golan Heights before being repulsed by Israeli counterattacks. After the war, Syria signed a disengagement agreement that left the Golan in Israel's hands.

    The Golan Heights Today ---- Druze sector

    There are approximately 17,000 Druze inhabitants on the Golan Heights today. In contrast to 1948-1967, when civilian infrastructure and services were almost completely neglected by successive Syrian governments, Israel has invested substantial sums in either installing or upgrading electric and water systems, in agricultural improvements and job training, and in building health clinics, where none had existed previously. The inhabitants also enjoy the benefits of Israel's welfare and social security programs. Israel has built or refurbished schools and classrooms, extended compulsory education from seven years to ten, and made secondary education available to girls for the first time. The Golan's Druze residents enjoy complete freedom of worship; the Israeli authorities have made financial contributions and tax and customs rebates to the local religious establishments.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
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