UK Court Sends Man to Jail for Nazi Joke, Proving How Valuable Our Free Speech Rights Are

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Channe, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Hate speech laws are intended to reduce damage caused by hate speech - that is the whole point. Hence why he was given a prison sentence. He preached hate speech through Youtube videos. "Gas the Jews" is also hate speech that appeals to Jew haters who will think that it is funny. Some Jew haters will take it a step further
     
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  2. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You've not got it. Yes it may cause offence or humiliation but the offence he was committing according to the judge was inciting hatred. As I have said before had the judge believed that he was doing this for the motive he said he would not have been found guilty. However the judge believed that if that had been the case he would not have made it widely available. Saying 'Gas the Jews' to your dog in order to annoy your girlfriend is one thing if you believe that is the thing most likely to piss her off. It takes all kinds. Making that available to the audience of youtube said something completely different in the eyes of the Judge.

    Everyone knows how incendiary saying 'Gas all Jews' is. As such if someone has such a poor sense of humour as this guy apparently has, most people would make sure it was not freely available on the internet ...so perhaps he was wanting the attention.

    and again Democracies have a responsibility to look after their minorities. That is because everyone is equal in a democracy but them being minorities may result in them being badly treated because they are a minority.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  3. RichT2705

    RichT2705 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Irrelevant. We going to outlaw speech that makes people angry or sad?? That's your idea of a good plan? Everyone just walk around saying pleasant things, and toss people in jail who say things we don't like?

    That's the kind of thing I'd expect a 5 year old to propose.
     
  4. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    Given causing more unneeded pain and more emotional harm to survivors of the holocaust is more then enough reason to throw some SOB in jail for a time.

    With the first amendment the US SC had allowed people to be thrown into prison for obscenity and that is nothing compared to sick jokes about gassing Jews while there are still survivors alive who had their whole families killed in that manner.

    The hell with the guy and his dog.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  5. RichT2705

    RichT2705 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Put someone in Jail for saying things that might make someone sad.....

    Please look at that in print and let it sink in how crazy this is. Everything coming out of someones mouth has to be happy, feelygood, rainbows and unicorns....or you might go to jail?

    This is the idea of a child.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
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  6. grapeape

    grapeape Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have credibility until your last sentence. You have to stick that garbage in at the end for what reason ?

    Progressives don’t “hate Freedom”. “Free speech” is one and “hate speech” designed to incite action is and are two completely different things. You can yell fire, but you cant yell fire in a crowded theatre. One is free speech, one gets people hurt. The court obviously thinks this guys was the latter.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  7. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    not when you call for deadly violence.

    that crosses the line
     
  8. RichT2705

    RichT2705 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We don't let Children run things in society because they're too ruled by emotions and feelz. What may sound doable to children, oftentimes just isn't...this is one of them. Either you have free speech, or you don't. You obviously don't subscribe to a society having free speech.

    So people who talk about Hitler or the Holocaust can go to jail....who's next? Someone makes you feel bad about your off brand sneakers gets 30 days?


    You posting that pic might make others angry or sad, why shouldn't you also spend some time in the cooler?
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
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  9. RichT2705

    RichT2705 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Where did that happen in this story?
     
  10. RichT2705

    RichT2705 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How so?
    Can you demonstrate how anyone could have been hurt in the same fashion as the fire/theater bit?

    This is simply about feelings, there was no one in any danger.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  11. Channe

    Channe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so instead of demanding other nations begin treating their citizens with dignity and rights, you'd rather blame the victim and tell them to move ?
     
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  12. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but there limits to free speech as there are limits to every freedom and making fun of killing 6 millions men women and children with special note of there still being survivors alive to this day go beyond those limits.

    Sorry that you do not care for those limits but for myself I see zero wrong with punishing some ******* for doing so with special note that such limits was very clear ahead of time in the UK.
     
  13. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    To me any victims here are the survivors of the mass killings not some joker who decide to made fun of those killings.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  14. RichT2705

    RichT2705 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Making fun of" something goes beyond the limits of "Free Speech".


    Making fun......


    This is why Children don't rule the world.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  15. Channe

    Channe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    just admit you're not a fan of Free Speech - there would be more dignity in it.
     
  16. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    Nazis and would be Nazis do not rule the world either thanks to payment in blood that was paid to stop them.
     
  17. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but once more I am must more concern about the dignity of the survivors of those killings then the 'dignity' of this gentleman and his dog.

    Still can remember years ago talking to one of the survivors and feeling like apologizing to her on behalf of the whole human race.
     
  18. Yulee

    Yulee Well-Known Member

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    I just said what I would do.

    I am not the one making a lame straw man by comparing being killed for being gay in Muslims countries to not being allowed to make pro Nazi statements.
     
  19. RichT2705

    RichT2705 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Absolutely right, and I'm glad for that.

    But society needs to stay grounded. We can't be tossing people in jail for words, no matter how distasteful. Do you really trust Humans, amid positions of power that routinely change with a rule set based on what offends someone?

    Heck you may have scarred someone a few posts above by posting their dad/brother/uncle/etc by posting that pic and bringing back all the pain. Should you spend time in the cooler for those hurt feelings?

    Everyone may have different things that offend them, and this could get really crazy really fast. Either you have free speech or you don't.
     
  20. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    For the umpteenth time he was not found guilty of being a pain in the ass, he was found guilty of incitement to hate.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...nd_guilty_of__being_grossly_offensive_online/

    He has certainly created a lot of circumstantial evidence for the charge of inciting hate - remember also the 23 'Gas all Jews'.

    It is not a charge of offending someone feelings. It is of incitement to hate. You can disagree with that if you want but that is what the charge is about not hurting someone's feelings.
     
  21. RichT2705

    RichT2705 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You can rewrite it all you like to sound more justified...but in the end he is facing jail time for feelings. As people in positions of power change, if the bar is set at feelings anything could end up going this route tomorrow depending on the feelings of those interpereting it.

    No actual harm was done here, other than feelings.



    That's exactly what it is no matter how you try to repaint it. Hate is an emotion, not a tangible anything. You cant give someone hate, you can't force someone to hate, and you can't take Hate from anyone...it's a nothing.

    All "hate speech" can do is hurt feelings.

    You are putting feelings above speech, as such you do not have free speech.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  22. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I do not support banning the utterance of "gas the Jews", holocaust denial, even openly demanding we elect parties who would legislate for genocide. So long as you aren't agitating a crowd to immediately, right this second go and kill people, you should be free to speak. Imminence should be required to suppress speech along public order lines.

    Clearly, pointing out that computer labs are segregated for blacks only, or that Allah may have been gay, should not be illegal. This is not a country I have any interest in living in.

    I want Fascists and Communists to be free to speak right up until they advocate imminently overthrowing the government. I want their views out in the open so we can engage in reasoned discussion and I can demonstrate while they are wrong. Having them fester in the shadows creates echo chambers where their ideas go unchallenged.

    You are not responsible for the actions of others. All people are entitled to equal protection under the law, there should be no special standards for special classes.
     
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  23. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, he is not. He is charged and found guilty of incitement to hate Jews. You are trying to minimise the crime by pretending it is just about feelings. It is not.

    What people should be discussing is whether inciting hate is what he was doing or not.


    and there you go again changing things and minimising things. Evidence was brought. I showed you some of what the prosecutors said to justify their position.

    You are completely unaware of whether that is correct or not. The court believed his intention was to incite hatred against Jews. They believed the dog was a prop. That is what this is about. Not your feelings.


    Yes you can stir up hatred in people. It is the easiest thing in the world. It is also the trump card of fascists. In addition if you allow people to start stirring up hate you make it socially acceptable. That is the first step. Then it moves onto something worse.

    I am saying what the charge was. The charge was about inciting hate. You are deliberately minimising this but all you are doing is waffling about nothing as that was not what the charge was about. Yes if would be offensive to people and the prosecution believed it would also scare people but the charge was about incitement to hate people because of their religion.

    Now I have to rush a pick up grandchildren from school.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  24. RichT2705

    RichT2705 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You keep saying this as if it's supposed ot have some real meaning apart from feelings...but it doesn't. Please explain how this is not about feelings.

    What people should be discussing is why a word everyone can interpret differently, is being used as some quantifiable, concrete quality that can be shown and exampled...and then of course people taken to task for it.

    The position cannot be justified. he made a you tube video with a dog that some found offensive and here we are. What happened to anyone as a result of his video, please share the harm it caused.

    I am quite aware it harmed no one, or it would have been in the story. however anyone can be wrong, including myself, so please link me the harm this caused.

    Quantify the "Hate" please. Show me the tangible qualities of an emotion. Seems to me the real danger here is the people who would allow feelings to strip them of free speech. We don't have to like what each other says, but in the end it's just words.


    Which is a BS charge and that's what we are talking about. Hate is an emotion, not a real thing. As such it cannot really be grabbed, given or "stirred up" at all. Nothing happened here, except a person made a stupid video.

    I expect you can link me the harm that was done. not maybes or possibles , but the actual harm.
     
  25. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad the court has the ability to look into the soul of a man
    with no Nazi ties or sympathies and determine his motivations for mocking Hitler (he has said we fought the Nazis precisely to insure people could act and practice their views freely). They must be very proud of their ability to read minds.

    Charlie Chaplin, Mel Brooks, John Cleese, the Three Stooges and Jack Benny, among many others, have all had artistic license and the freedom to critique Nazism by mocking Hitler and holding up the Nazis to ridicule (a very effective psychological tool).
    I wonder if this court in Scotland will sentence these artists in absentia.

    But seriously, I'm not privy to how this court came to their unfortunate decision so I can't comment on it other to say this is not
    a victory for free speech and hate speech laws are more accurately thought crime laws.
    The land of George Orwell and Big Brother has taken a giant step backwards past the Age of Enlightenment right into the Dark Ages.




    So far the Jewish community in America is free from
    the consequences of people who hate without the sort of draconian repressive anti free speech laws that infest the UK.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
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