When does a ZEF (zygote/embryo/fetus) become a person? WHY?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by bobnelsonfr, Apr 13, 2018.

  1. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    What in your mind, creates a human baby? You are once in the position yourself, and everything you will be is in those two cells. You height, your eye color, your looks, EVERYTHING you will turn out to. So give me the minute it becomes "a Human being"?

    With your attitude towards life, let me know when a Jew will become Human in Nazi Germany?

    So it someone shoots and kills you, declares you were not human, that is the end of it right? You have to sit back and justify such a position, and you will find it impossible. If they killed you in your mothers womb, it is ok to kill the same person on the street at your age, just instead of killing the human in the first trimester, they kill you in the 64th trimester. Please tell me the difference. I would really like to know.
     
  2. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    No more than the charlies I had to shoot in Nam.
    If you touch a hot stove is it really a burn?
    The difference is HUMAN CHOICE. If you run out in the middle of the 5 freeway in California, and someone runs you over, is that killing, or knowing they will shoot you at the border and you come anyways, is it suicide?
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  3. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You posted, "killing is killing".
     
  4. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    .


    Totally irreelvant to the abortion issue....or rights...


    At birth , that means when it's born.....when it no longer depends on another to physically sustain it's life.





    Jews are always human, why do YOU insist they aren't???

    Were you aware we have laws?


    Once again (and again and again) when one is BORN...whether you like it or not birth makes a difference...


    A human fetus is always human, it is NOT a legal person until birth....it's a simple concept....
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
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  5. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    Yes I did, and it is. However, killing helpless people who have no choice like a baby, is not like killing someone who breaks into your house and attempts to rape your wife. Some killing is justified, self defense for one. I had to kill or be killed. Suicide is self killing, a personal choice, But abortion is unjustified killing, what we call murder.
    But it is all killing, some is OK, some is necessary, but most is not.
     
  6. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :) So "killing" YOU approve of is OK....:) Good thing you don't make laws....


    IF a fetus was ever deemed a legal person then it would have no right to use another's body to sustain it's own life....NO one has that right...
     
  7. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    It was not against their will!!! The woman created that child willingly (you do know how babies are created dont' you?). And proof, once born, the father cannot say I don't want this child and walk away from supporting it, using his body and his fruits of his labors to sustain someone elses' life, happens all the time. Lets put you under the same laws. What happens if the legal law suddenly said YOU were "deemed" no longer human, and they took you away to kill you even though you had committed no crime, but THE LAW said all white people are not longer human. Fair??? that is what happens in war. You need to read a history book.
     
  8. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    So a 10 year old child has the potential to become an adult, so we can abort them too in the 40th trimester? Not an adult, not born, not this, not that, all the same! Right?
     
  9. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    Child support is wrong in your book. A father is not a slave to anyone, even the 13th amendment says you cannot be placed in involuntary servitude. That is the logic you are using.
    The woman agreed to the contract just like the father did for child support. She CHOSE to become an incubator because she CHOSE to have a child by having unprotected sex. She took a risk, rolled the dice, and woops, snake eyes, your pregnant.

    You are illogical. Tomorrow they may find you expendable from the human race. It has happened 1000s of time in history. Welcome to hell kid.
     
  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Reported for altering my quoted posts...
     
  11. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    What the hell are you talking about a father being a slave? Yes both the father and the mother obviously had unprotected sex. He knew that he would have consequences and she knew she would have consequences. He knew that he would have to pay child support if his child was born and she had a lot more consequences
     
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  12. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    You seem to think a zygote is the same as a ten year old child. It’s a waste of time to discuss this with you.
     
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  13. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First, a zygote is one cell, not two.

    Second, "everything you will be" is in the cheek cells you wash down the drain every time you brush your teeth, in the skin cells you wash off your body in the shower and in the urine and feces you flush down the toilet. Are those cells human? Yes. Are they human beings? No.

    Becoming a human being is a stage of develop. Can you tell me the "minute" an apple seed becomes an apple tree? A roe a fish?
     
  14. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    That is the question I am throwing out. When does a seed become a tree? When it becomes a viable seed. Reverse, how can you have the tree without the seed?/?
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :roflol::roflol::roflol::roflol: So? One wasn't born and one has been born.


    Why do you want a zygote to have more rights than anyone else?
     
  16. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The fetus is neither separate nor a person. A fetus is quite different from a newborn. Just for fun, I googled "scientific fetal development." Those articles do not refer to a "mother" at all because the focus is the fetus. A woman and man become mother and father when a child is born, not during fetal development. A pregnant woman is "GOING TO BECOME a mother"
     
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  17. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Distorting posts isn't helping you. A zygote can grow into a 10 year old but a zygote is not a human being much less a 10 year old child.
     
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  18. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Don't confuse the adjective "human" with the noun "human." A human embryo is "human" (adjective), but not "a human" (noun).
     
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  19. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's a stage of development. I'm sure a botanist can tell you. For now, all that's important is for us to agree that an apple seed is not an apple tree and to understand how that same see can grow into an apple tree even though it isn't one yet.
     
  20. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Prematurely born babies are already placed in incubators, an artificial womb-like environment (as much so as we can make it), to complete their gestation when they are born at a VIABLE gestation age. That is considered to be 24 weeks when 50% of fetuses may possibly survive. Contrary to some views the level of viability is not moving to a lower gestation age, and the numbers that SEEM to indicate viability is moving are misleading because the reason is an increased number of prematurely born infants are surviving, NOT AT ALL because the possibility of viability is changing. Some scientists believe we have "hit a wall" concerning moving the age of viability, IAC, we are FAR from being able to grow a human in a test tube.
     
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  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for a great post and welcome back, missed you!
     
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  22. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Viability", in biology, means "ability to survive or live successfully." Be it a zygote or a premie, it can't live without a womb, natural or artificial, meaning it isn't viable in this context.

    The original disagreement was whether or not medical science can produce an artificial womb in the foreseeable future. I think it can, but another thought it could not. More for political reasons, IMO, than scientific as her subsequent post indicated.

    Regardless, a zygote in an artificial womb is still not "viable" and it is certainly not a human being.
     
  23. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The law, in a secular government like ours, should be based on whether or not an action causes disorder in society. The sole purpose of government is to maintain order in society. Laws based on religious beliefs should not be allowed. Abortion has existed for centuries without causing disorder. Actually, it appears that the act of attempting to regulate pregnancy and even sex according to religious mandates is a basic cause of disorder.
     
  24. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The "except for" means the fetus is NOT separate. The means of supplying sustenance and incubation means it IS attached.
     
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  25. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No one can be compelled to give blood to save another's life. No one can be compelled to share unneeded body organs to save another's life even after death. Why ever should a woman be compelled to provide her uterus (and the rest of her body supporting the use of the uterus), risking her own life, even to save a human life?

    I think the answer to my above question lies in your statement. Blame the woman for causing an unwanted pregnancy and automatically she deserves punishment for that, and appropriate punishment seems to be enduring pregnancy and childbirth. Many of us feel that a child should not be a punishment.
     
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