When does a ZEF (zygote/embryo/fetus) become a person? WHY?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by bobnelsonfr, Apr 13, 2018.

  1. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    A 1 year old child is still not "separate" from the mother because it cannot fend for itself, so it is also OK to kill them too from your logic.
     
  2. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    Why would you consider a pregnancy a punishment? Many yearn for it and cannot have it. It is just a natural outcome of the actions of the male and female working together to fail to protect each other from a possible (to them) calamity. .
     
  3. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    The women knowingly took the risk to have the child with unprotected sex. It happens to whores all the time. Again, after you are born, lying on the delivery table, the fetus is STILL tied to the mother to take care of it, or it will die!
     
  4. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A one year old child is separate from the mother because the mother is not required to provide for it. Anyone can volunteer to provide for it. That is the difference between social dependence and physical dependence.
     
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  5. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    Because that is the point when the fetus can leave the woman and survive on it's own, separate from the woman. Until then it is part of the woman and totally dependent on her.
    Becoming viable however, does NOT make the fetus a person, only birth, complete separation from the woman, makes the fetus a person



    Totally irrelevant... besides,taking a risk doesn't mean you can't protect your self from the outcome....



    .

    Actually whores are even more careful because their livelihood depends on it...


    No, after birth the fetus is separate from the mother and anyone may take care of it, it doesn't have to be the mother...
     
  6. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    A one year old child is completely separate physically from it's mother.
     
  7. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Pregnancy isn't a punishment if a woman consents to it....it IS a punishment if it is forced on the woman.
     
  8. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A wanted pregnancy is not a punishment. Pregnancy/childbirth becomes a punishment when it is forced upon someone who doesn't want it. Since abortion is safer for a woman than childbirth (about 14 times safer, why do you think it is moral to force a woman to endure it? I'm sure it's because she deserves punishment for daring to choose sex.
     
  9. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    Boy, talk about a selfish version of lack of humanity. A fetus is a human being period. Without that original person, you would not exist, so you are talking about killing a person. You were once that "person" in the womb, and you are not as much a human now than you were then I gather.
    And who is "forcibly" inflicting a responsibility on someone else??? NOBODY. She inflicts it on herself!!!!!! IF it is felt by the female to be a punishment, she punished herself by her own behavior in creating another human life. Putting you hand on a hot stove is not a punishment, it is a choice and the pain just is.
     
  10. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you want to punish the woman because she choose UNPROTECTED sex? Half of all pregnancies are unplanned, half of those pregnancies happened to women who were using birth control. No, you are wrong, after you are born, anyone can provide for you. The mother can leave the picture if she wishes.
     
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  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    .


    Ya, Anti-Choicers lack the humanity to consider women and their rights...they'd rather treat them like animals...



    Nope, not legally.



    Irrelevant.



    Yup, women are responsible when they get pregnant and also responsible for how they handle it....it is no one else's responsibility NOR THEIR BUSINESS
     
  12. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is punishing anyone. The child is certainly not responsible for it's creation, now is it? It didn't ask to be created, now did it. And it is estimated that 92.5% of pregnancies result from plain old unprotected sex. You want pleasure, be responsible for the results. End of story. And after it is born, a woman can walk away but a man cannot???? Hmmm, sexist to boot.
     
  13. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A fetus is not a human being; a human being has a brain capable of directing its bodily functions so that it could be self-sustaining if necessary. A fetus is "human" (adjective) but NOT "a human being." It is those who force women to continue an unwanted pregnancy by means of law who are punishing a woman. There is no logical reason why a woman should not be legally allowed to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.
     
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  14. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    Pregnancy isn't a punishment if a woman consents to it....it IS a punishment if it is forced on the woman.




    No, she isn't...consent to one act is not consent to any other act.




    You don't have to repeat your whore comments, I know what you think of women.



    He isn't being punished for having sex, he's forced by law to support his children.


    :roflol: Oh, too bad, the courts and law say otherwise :) :)



    He isn't punished for having sex, he's made, by law, to support CHILDREN,,,,those BORN things...
     
  15. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Those who want to use the force of law to implement their own religious beliefs are instruments of punishment. There is no child until birth. Your number is incorrect. Half of pregnancies are planned. The half of pregnancies that are unplanned are half the result of unprotected sex and half happen in spite of birth control. Abortion IS a responsible act, it is not responsibility you want, it is punishment. Men have always been able to walk away, but nowadays with DNA testing he does have to send a check or have his wages garnished.
     
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  16. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but you were once that fetus. Why does it matter if they kill you now than kill you then? And again, you keep ignoring the fact that a baby on the delivery table cannot care for itself either. It is just as helpless outside the womb as inside the womb 5 minutes before.

    The women, by her actions, is not being punished for her actions, she is being held responsible for them, just like a man is responsible for paying the hospital bill and support of "her creation" for 18 more years. Are you also think it is not a punishment to the male?
     
  17. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    So there you go. First, let me assure you, I am NOT religious. However, for me and my decendents to live and continue on, I have to treat you the same way I treat family, or eventually our genetic line will be terminated.
    Abortion is punishment of the female inside the female's body. To kill another human being for the sake of freedom from an act the woman voluntarily did, how sad is that.
    And I see you still hold the sexist line. Women play, men pay. If women do not want to be PUNISHED by law, then lets get modern and not punish men by law. The women can abort, then the man can just walk away if she keeps it and he doesn't want it. I mean lets be fair and equal to the two sexes. How about that for a compromise.
     
  18. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Very very long ago, when I was a fetus, I was subject to my mother's willingness to continue her pregnancy. I certainly would not have wanted her to be forced to continue a pregnancy she did not want even if it meant I would never have existed. You keep ignoring the fact that a newborn baby can be cared for by anyone who volunteers, i.e. no one is forced to care for it. No one should be forced to care for an unborn either. You also keep ignoring the fact that forcing "responsibility" is punishment. You just like the word "responsibility" and do not like "punishment." While I have every sympathy for a male who has been trapped by a predatory female, I simply don't think sending a check is anywhere near the level of pregnancy/birth/child-rearing.
     
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  19. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are religious. You BELIEVE that a fetus is "another human being" in spite of having been enlightened to the fact that ''a human being" has characteristics that are lacking in an early fetus. You BELIEVE that a woman should be punished for choosing sex. Your beliefs make you "religious" even though you may not endorse a common church.

    That's not fair and equal. Fair and equal is not possible in pregnancy/childbirth/child-rearing. Men are only required to provide 50% of financial care for 18 years while women provide 100% of pregnancy and childbirth, 100% of child-rearing, and 50% of financial care. When men share pregnancy/childbirth/child-rearing on an equal basis, I will entertain the idea of 50% choice.
     
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  20. not2serious

    not2serious Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I am not religious, but I am a TOTAL equal rights person. Women want to be treated the same as men, fine, but take the responsibilities with the equality. Fair and equal CAN be fair and equal in pregnancy/childbirth/child-rearing. Either both have the right to "walk away" or neither have the right to "walk away". You are showing you are a sexist. Women play, men pay. But it can be fair. Let me tell you a little story.
    In 1971 I came back from Nam (there were no drafted women in my unit hmmmm, but that is for another topic) and after about a year back, my wife left me AND the children. She wanted to play. I was going to college, taking care of two young children. Guess what. NO CHILD SUPPORT. She just decided to have her abortion of parenting AFTER the children were born. I raised them and now they are fine adults in their mid and late 40's. The first wife just walked away, she believes like you do, no responsibilities for your actions. You know, parenting is a PUNISHMENT! Well I had a RESPONCIBILITY to raise the children I created. I was not PUNISHED for it, I did what a NORMAL human being would do, and for the most part enjoyed it, even though it was a PUNISHMENT (rolling eyes).
    I believe in true EQALITY of the sexes. But with equality, comes responsibility for that equality. That is something you have not learned or at least considered. that is not religion, it is a societal responsibility of humanity, something I guess you don't have!
     
  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :) Won't have true equality until men can get pregnant....

    Someone who really believes in equal rights believes women should have the same rights as everyone else, you don't.


    But I can see where the bitterness and misogyny came into it :) Must've been awful doing what so many women do, raise their kids on their own
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
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  22. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Go the other way, something your friends had a very strong objection to earlier: artificial wombs.

    That way nobody has to get pregnant.
     
  23. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are a sexist for failing to recognize the enormous sacrifice by women for pregnancy/childbirth. Until you can equalize that, there is no fair and equal.

    I congratulate you for stepping up to the plate. If the children's mother was not required to pay child support, it must have been because she had no money. It is your belief that a certain way of showing responsibility is the "right" way and anything else is "wrong", that is religious belief, not fact.
     
  24. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That may be possible someday, but it is years away from reality. I don't know if society will tolerate the level of experimentation on humans that will be required to make it an actuality.
     
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  25. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What experimentation? It would be perfected on animals. Prize cattle and horses could be grown in safety. Once the tech is proven, it could be offered to help couples conceive where the woman cannot safely carry a baby or is unable to do so. After that, then it becomes more a matter of choice than medical necessity.

    It's like pilotless airliners; most people now would object, but after a decade of rich guys using it and riding driverless Ubers to work and home, people will accept it.
     

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