Interesting thing about the ME262. It's kill to loss rate was only a little better than 1 to 1. It had at best 30 to maybe 40 minutes of fuel and engine failure rate was high. It also required a huge amount of logistics to keep in the air.
1. The V1 was not in use until 1944. By then, the allies had retired thousands of aircraft capable of intercepting V1s, while not employing even 1 aircraft used against Germany. In addition, bombing civilian targets only hardened civilian resolve and put fire into British and Allied troops. 2. Russia defeated Germany by massive production of equipment, particularly artillery and tanks. German medium bombers - like all bombers - were highly vulnerable to fighter air defense. No matter what Germany did, with German industry being pounded by the Allies from the West - and essentially unlimited supplies from the USA - which Germany could not reach - and increasingly completely undeterred increasingly massive Russian production in East Russia that Germany could match no even slow down, it didn't matter what air support German troops had. Lack of heavy long range bombers meant an endless supply of more Russian tanks, artillery, aircraft and everything else. 3. Yes, the UK particularly was advanced in jet technology, but was not set up for production. UK jets in the UK would do no good over Germany because they could not reach Germany. All jets of that era had VERY short range. Simply, Allied bombers would have been slaughtered trying to reach German industry. In the East, German jets could have essentially eliminated the Russia's airforce and the Jets could have more served German frontline troops by allowing air superiority to Germany - thus their prop driven aircraft could then be used for ground attack and as tank busters. Germany was not doomed after Stalingrad and Kursk - nor would either battle likely have been lost. Full command of the air would have meant virtually no supplies would have reached Stalingrad. Kursk was lost because of massive Russian production of tanks, artillery, aircraft and other major equipment, plus essentially unlimited supply of munitions. With control of the air, Russia could not have even gotten much of its production to the front by rail. Trains are sitting ducks to aircraft attack. Jet aircraft with 20mm cannons versus steam locomotive. Who do you say wins? Can't really hide railroad tracks with without bridges, those are worthless too. With heavy long range bombers and jet fighters - thus Germany having total air superiority in support of ground forces while reducing Russia's industrial production in the East - it unlikely Germany would have lost Stalingrad and Kursk. At the same time, German production of war equipment - and fuel supply - would have not been handicapped by allied bombing with German jet aircraft to oppose the bombers - which could not be opposed by Allied jets even if they did produce them lacking the range to escort our bombers from the UK to Germany. Nor was the 262 Germany's only highly advanced aircraft in the working prototype stage. The shortcoming of the P47 was it could not reach Germany - with this many times worse for jet aircraft of that era. Allied jets in the UK could only defend the UK, not attack Germany or defend our bombers. D-Day would have minimally been delayed if Germany had jets to oppose the crossing plus at least initially would have near total control of the air until the Allies had jets in actual large scale production. Anything that would have bought Germany time could have seriously altered the war. Germany did have atomic bomb technology. While they could not attack the USA with atom bombs (at least not at first), they easily could have dropped atom bombs on the UK. The UK would have no choice but to surrender. Without the UK, where would that leave the USA? Alone in North Africa? Would the USA even fight on if German also gave the atom bomb to Japan? Could Russia win if Germany had the atom bomb? Whoever got the atom bomb first - won - it was that simple. Nor would it take many. Once we said "Tokoyo is next" the Emperor went on the radio and immediately surrendered. So would the UK if Germany had an atom bomb and said "London is next." What would the USA say if Japan said Honolulu or Los Angeles is next? Aircraft launched from submarines has already been developed. That meant atom bombs could reach any coastal city. Like DC. That is just one example of if Germany could have delayed Allied advances from the East and West even just for a few months - while protecting their own industry and fuel source - WW2 could have had a much different outcome. Germany simply ran out of time to use its rapidly advancing technologies. There are many errors Hitler made (so did we). However, I stand by my view that in terms of aircraft (including rockets/missiles) those were Hitler's 3 greatest blunders. Going off topic, I've never heard anyone agree with me that his greatest error was the holocaust. That is not because the world cared. It didn't. But because it not only cost Germany many scientists as most prominent German scientists were Jews - not just Einstein, but also specifically caused Einstein both leaving Germany and giving up being a strict pacifist towards the USA. Einstein escaped. His SISTER died in a concentration camp. Because of the holocaust, not only did Einstein convince Roosevelt to pursue the atom bomb - which played no role in the war against Germany - he also warned that Germany was pursuing it. In response, the Allies undertook a successful espionage attack against Germany's main heavy water production facility and - in my opinion - is why Roosevelt would not follow Churchill's urging that instead of a cross channel attack from the West, to instead just keep coming up the "soft underbelly of Europe" - cutting off Russia capturing East Europe. All of German major industry - including in development of the atom bomb - was in the West, not in Southern Europe. But for Einstein, Germany would have likely gotten the atom bomb in time to use it. But for the holocaust including his own sister a victim, Einstein would likely have 1.) remained in Germany and 2.) even if not would have remained a silent pacifist. Given the brutality against Jews and even his own sister, Einstein came to decide that Hitler must NOT have the atom bomb and that we must have it to stop him if necessary.
The main danger was during landing and take-off - and the early engines could flame out until the pilots figured how to avoid this. Most lost were lost being shot down on landing and take-off - or parked on the ground, not in combat. With air superiority, none of those loses would have happened and the 262 offered that air superiority of it had been put into production ASAP. Hitler was NUTS to delay it because he demanded they figure how to make it big enough to be a bomber and with the range travel to London and back. Truly out of his mind as he had total air superiority by the end of 1941 merely by ordering 262s to be the priority aircraft production - rather than not produced at all. The ME 262 air frame was in flight in April 1941. In flight with jet engines by July, 1941. Hitler delayed its production until April, 1944 - 20 months! trying to get them to turn it into a bomber - and didn't have a jet fighter squadron until into 1945. Even then, Germany made 1,400 before the end of the war - or in about 12 months. However, never had more than 200 in operation at any time. Those in operate slaughter Allied aircraft. There was essentially no defense. The only hope was the short range of their guns and their extreme speed gave a chance they would miss. When shot down, it was either during take-off/landing or if one of the jet engines flamed out while still at altitude. While situationally they could dogfight, their method of attack was straight in attack. Had production started 20 months earlier - and before German industry and fuel sources were being pounded by allied bombing - Germany could have had 1000 in the air by mid 1942 and probably 5000 by 1943 - rather than 200 in 1945. That would have made Allied bombing untenable. We didn't even have piston engine fighters to escort all the way to Germany. Even the P51 - our best escort - could not defend our bombers against ME262s - or even defend themselves against the 262. Our aircraft were almost like sitting ducks - having to hope the 262 missed or you got super lucky and one of its engines flamed out - a problem German pilots soon solved. Yes, LATER, the Allies had jet technology. But had Allied bombing been delay a year? Two years? As Germany put thousands of jets into the air - including then the newer versions? That would have been nearly an entirely different war. The kill was 4 to 1, not 1 to 1 - and this due primarily to jet engine failure and shotdown on take off and landing because Germany did NOT have air superiority, which it would have had with 1000 or 2000 ME262s.It was the view of our air forces that the only way to defeat the 262 was when it was on or near the ground. In the air? NO CHANCE. If the 262 was in production and combat 2 years earlier this would have allowed Germany 2 years to increasingly make the jet engines more reliable - as was happening.2 years of Germany commanding the air. Two years of German industry safe from our bombers. As the technology advanced, the kill ratio dramatically improved. One German ace shot down 10 P51s and 4 bombers. Another shot down 27 of the considered too-fast-to-intercept UK Mosquitoes. The top German Ace in ME262s shot down 240 aircraft! If that isn't a reliable combat aircraft, I don't know what it could be. Nor does it work to claim "but the Allies would then have built jets too!" The Allies jets were not even test flown until 2 years after the first ME262 was flying - and it was the ME262 that put the Allies into a deperate jet development program. So, regardless, if Hitler had put the ME262 into production in 1941 - rather than 1944 and no jet squadron until 1945 - Germany would have had 2 years of air superiority. 2 years of virtually no industry lose to bombers and no ground forces lost to Allied aircraft nor German transportation and supply lines harassed by Allied aircraft - and would have likely remained 2 years ahead of anything the Allies developed. "After the end of the war, the Me 262 and other advanced German technologies were quickly swept up by the Soviets, British and Americans, as part of the USAAF's Operation Lusty. Many Me 262s were found in readily repairable condition and were confiscated. The Soviets, British and Americans wished to evaluate the technology, particularly the engines. During testing, the Me 262 was found to be faster than the British Gloster Meteor fighter jet, and had better visibility to the sides and rear (mostly due to the canopy frames and the discoloration caused by the plastics used in the Meteor's construction), and was a superior gun platform to the Meteor F.1 which had a tendency to snake at high speed and exhibited "weak" aileron response.[80] The Me 262 had a shorter range than the Meteor and had less reliable engines. The USAAF compared the P-80 Shooting Star and Me 262, concluding that the Me 262 was superior in acceleration and speed, with similar climb performance. The Me 262 appeared to have a higher critical Mach number than any American fighter.[81]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262 And those were at least 2 years behind in development and a flying prototype than the 262. Two years in technological edge in WW2 was almost an eternity. Sure, the 262 was trash compared to an F16. But from 1941 thru 1944 it would have allowed Germany to control the air over Europe, Africa and Western Russia. Sounds to me like the way to win a war in the first half of the 1940s. Afterall, that's how we did it. And how we still do. If the other side controls the air, you're screwed. (I used to read PILES of materials on WW2 aircraft. At the end, both Germany and Japan has superior aircraft technology, but the clock ran out of both of them - and then the atom bomb made everything else irrelevant. Both made the mistake of becoming so lost in pursuing so many different advanced models - particularly jet and rocket aircraft - then never would focus on one and throw it into mass production. Germany even had superior prototype piston aircraft than we did - but never put it into production and instead still diverting to another new design. Month after month. Year and then another year. They had dozens of seriously superior flying prototypes - but kept messing around with building more prototypes a tad better - though vastly superior already to anything we had. But they were not put into production pursuing still a better one - like the tech-geeks took over and Hitler an idiot seeing it as building a better toy to show off. Best prototype is worthless. It's about production. Other than naval, the USA was NOT the technological leader.)
Operational loses were really more 1:1 and that's what is important. You could nurse the aircraft to loiter for 60 to 90 minutes, but to really survive you had to fly the aircraft fast and you suck gas. Acceleration was dismal and if you were caught slow you were meat. Push the throttles hard and you'll get a flameout. The aircraft also bleed off speed like a pig. Ever see the tactics used. The 30 mm guns were low velocity and you had to really slow the aircraft down to hit the bomber boxes. They'd use a version of a low speed yo yo or an Immelman to attack the bombers from the side. Head on they're way to fast. Also remember you're sitting on almost 700 gallons of fuel in unarmored tanks. One API hit and you're a flamer.
Interceptors are notoriously fast, but short on fuel. The Spitfire was famous, but the Hurricane was the backbone of Brit air defense...just not as pretty.
Interesting you posting this. I watched an long old documentary on this last week. comparing the two. The Spitfire was a superior dog fighter - but not greatly so - and generally was for air combat with the ME109s. The Hurricanes were far more rugged and were primarily for attacking German bombers. On all sided, air battles were for the purpose of destroying the bombers of the other side, not their fighters. It was all about the bombers. The Hurricanes had far more kills, but easier targets on average, and far more Hurricanes were built. They were much easier to repair due to a fabric and wood fuselage, and were used in every theater in the war in large numbers. Far more were built than Spitfires as they could be built faster and cheaper. Interestingly, is the British rejected the design. The company owner then put his personal money into building them (this before the war) as a gamble. The gamble paid off. When the war started, the British government bought them all and as willing to buy as many Hurricanes as could be built. He already had perfected assembly line construction - and any furniture shop could build the fuselage. Everyone wanted them. Because so much was wood and fabric, it took far less equipment and far less skill to build - and every furniture factory could be shifted to making the air frame. If holes were shot it on, a bit of Irish wool for a patch and dope to glue it on with and it could be back in the air in 10 minutes. Same for airframe damage. It was like fixing a broken leg on a wooden chair. Fast. Cheap. Low skill. A Spitfire had to be reskinned in the damaged aluminum before put back into the fight. If the aluminum frame damaged, it was a major rebuild or even totalled out the Spitfire. Wood had its pluses, like with the UK Mosquito. First aircraft to surpass 400 mph. Low material costs and low labor skills to make.
No, it was not 1-1, but I guess we disagree on that. They were used defensively primarily against bombers, but would take on P51s and Mosquitos opportunistically. The Germans always knew we were coming. They could fly higher than prop driven aircraft like jets can. They would take off, get to an altitude higher than our aircraft, and then dive down for a single pass. You are correct about the means they used to slow down just before the kill - and then would get the hell out of there. Our hope was to be able to follow it and shoot it while landing. Very few were shot down in the air in combat. They did not bleed off airspeed and one design flaw cited was lack of air brakes. The problems you cite were early on and German pilots had sorted thru those in terms of flame outs. Yes, the pilots had to figure out how to baby the jet engines. They were not like piston engines where you can just throw the throttle wide open. The gun choice was a poor choice for sure. But since they were for taking out bombers, they needed hard hitting ammo. They had one pass to do it in. Our escort fighters essentially could not even engage them until after their attack on our bombers. They could only hope to be able to keep up with and follow it until it had to land due to its short air time capability. If more than just a few ME262s were available, they could have been employed in waves, each one protecting the previous squad's landing while they then came down, coming in on the tails of our fighters pursuing the prior squadron. The real problem for the ME262 was there was never enough of them. A dozen here. Half a dozen there. While we sent in aircraft in massive waves. The lose stat is 4-1. Most loses were on the ground and during take-off/landing. They were slow accelerating on take-off, though generally had enough advance warning to get to altitude before our aircraft arrived. All aircraft are vulnerable on landing and parked on the ground. Air superior would have avoided most of those loses. Those that were shot down while in actual combat were few and far between, basically lucky shots combined with being vastly outnumbered. A squadron of P51s were proud to have shot down a lone ME262 by amassing all their guns its direction and making a lucky hit. That squadron of P51s would have possibly been slaughtered if it had been a squadron of ME262s coming down at them. The year matters too. In 1941 and thru most of 1942, we did not have fighter escort that could even make it to Germany to escort our bombers. Even the later P51 only had minutes of reserve time over Germany if having to take off from the UK. It was ONLY when we had based on the mainland after D-Day could our aircraft loiter over Germany even close to how long an ME262 could have stayed in the air. Again, the problem of the ME262 was it was far too little and FAR too late. Hitler blew air superiority for nearly 2 years. The day of D-Day, the war was already lost to Germany and everyone - even German command - knew it.
While an awesome looking aircraft, the "Flying Fortress" was not a good design. Rather, it was what we had. It was a medium bomber in payload, not a heavy bomber. It required a crew of 10 (if I remember correctly) and was sent on bombing runs with no fighter escort - and usually at cities, not military targets. The loses were astronomical. Personally, I believe the person in charge of our bomber strategy was both an idiot and sociopath. He believed if we killed enough civilians Germany would surrender. That has never worked before or since - other than the atom bomb. Nor did it take daylight bombing runs to bomb cities as that is not precision bombing (if there even was such a thing as high altitude precision bombing early in WW2.)
Long ago a person could buy a used AT-6 for about $10K as they were not a warbird. Now they are quite valuable.
Yeah, I heard you could buy a Mustang for $20k in the 60's, but that was also the cost of many houses. The ME-262 delays were more about their engines than interference by Hitler. His interference overall had little effect. Even when it went operational, with the loss of strategic metals, the turbines were made of softer steel so they have to be rebuilt every eight hours. With or without Einstein, German didn't have the centrifuges needed to get enough material for bomb making. According to Speer's book, they knew they couldn't build one early on and quit trying to build a bomb in 43 or 44 (can't remember exact year). The heavy water experiments were meant to develop nuclear power, not weapons. An ex-coworker had a signed picture from Chuck Yeager. Said he sent him a letter requesting it. I should send a request while there is still time. I missed out on getting my R. Lee Ermey action figure signed.
This is just a partial list of ME 262 losses. 14.01.45: Me 262 of II./K.G. 51 crashed after combat, pilot killed 16.01.45: Me 262 of II.K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in strafing attack on Giebelstadt airfield 23.01.45: Me 262 of I./K.G. 51 shot down in combat, pilot killed 29.01.45: Me 262 of I./K.G. 51 damaged in strafing attack on Kitzingen airfield 08.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G. 51 damaged by friendly anti-aircraft fire, pilot unhurt 09.02.45: Me 262 of Stab K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 09.02.45: Me 262 of Stab I./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in combat, pilot wounded 09.02.45: Me 262 of Stab I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 09.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in combat, pilot unhurt 09.02.45: Me 262 of Stab I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 14.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G. 51 shot down in combat, pilot unhurt 14.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G. 51 shot down in combat, pilot killed 14.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G. 51 shot down in combat, pilot killed 14.02.45: Me 262 of III./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot unhurt 15.02.45: Me 262 of 11./N.J.G. 11 damaged in combat, pilot unhurt 16.02.45: Me 262 of III./K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in strafing attack on Obertraubling airfield 17.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 20.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in strafing attack on Giebelstadt airfield 21.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in strafing attack on Giebelstadt airfield 21.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G. 51 slightly damaged on mission by ground fire, pilot unhurt 21.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G. 51 lost on mission to Nijmegen 16:55-17:55, pilot missing 22.02.45: Me 262 of Stab J.G. 7 shot down in combat, pilot wounded 22.02.45: Me 262 of III./J.G. 7 damaged in combat, pilot unhurt 22.02.45: Me 262 of III./J.G. 7 shot down in combat, pilot killed 22.02.45: Me 262 of III./J.G. 7 shot down in combat, pilot unhurt 22.02.45: Me 262 of III./J.G. 7 shot down in combat, pilot unhurt 22.02.45: Me 262 of K.G. 51 lost on mission, pilot killed 23.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in a bombing raid on Neuburg 23.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in a bombing raid on Neuburg 23.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in a bombing raid on Neuburg 23.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in a bombing raid on Neuburg 23.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in a bombing raid on Neuburg 23.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in a bombing raid on Neuburg 24.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G. 51 damaged by enemy fighter on landing at Rheine, pilot unhurt 25.02.45: Me 262 of Stab K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in bombing raid on Giebelstadt 25.02.45: Me 262 of Stab K.G.(J) 54 damaged in bombing raid on Giebelstadt 25.02.45: Me 262 of Stab K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in bombing raid on Giebelstadt 25.02.45: Me 262 of Stab K.G.(J) 54 damaged in bombing raid on Giebelstadt 25.02.45: Me 262 of Stab K.G.(J) 54 damaged in strafing attack on Giebelstadt, pilot wounded 25.02.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 25.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 25.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 25.02.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 01.03.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 01.03.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 01.03.45: Me 262 of I./Erg.K.G.(J) shot down in combat, pilot killed 01.03.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot wounded 01.03.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 03.03.45: Me 262 of III./J.G. 7 shot down in combat, pilot killed 09.03.45: Me 262 of 2./K.G.(J) 54 damaged in combat, pilot unhurt 13.03.45: Me 262 of K.G. 51 shot down in combat with Thunderbolts, pilot missing 21.03.45: Me 262 of 1./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 22.03.45: Me 262 of 2./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot wounded 21.03.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot unhurt 31.03.45: Me 262 of 2./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot killed 07.04.45: Me 262 of 1./K.G.(J) 54 shot down in combat, pilot wounded 01.04.45: Me 262 slightly damaged in strafing attack on Schwäbisch Hall 01.04.45: Me 262 damaged in Mustang strafing attack on Kaltenkirchen 01.04.45: Me 262 damaged in Mustang strafing attack on Kaltenkirchen 01.04.45: Me 262 damaged in Mustang strafing attack on Kaltenkirchen 01.04.45: Me 262 damaged in Mustang strafing attack on Kaltenkirchen 01.04.45: Me 262 damaged in Mustang strafing attack on Kaltenkirchen 01.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. missing on operation over Berlin 04.04.45: Me 262 of 2. J.Div. destroyed in combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 2. J.Div. destroyed in combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 2. J.Div. damaged in combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 2. J.Div. missing after combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 2. J.Div. missing after combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 2. J.Div. missing after combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. destroyed in combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. destroyed in combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. missing after combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. missing after combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. lost in combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. lost in combat 04.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. lost in combat 05.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. missing after combat 05.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat 05.04.45: Me 262 of Jagdverband Galland lost in combat 07.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. missing after combat 07.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat 07.04.45: Me 262 of 1. J.Div. damaged in combat 10.04.45: Me 262 of 2./K.G.(J) 54 shot down by enemy fighter while landing, pilot wounded 10.04.45: Me 262 of 3./K.G.(J) 54 shot down by enemy fighter while landing, pilot wounded 17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission 17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission 17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission 17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission 17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission 17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission 17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission 17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission 17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps lost on mission 17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps missing after mission 17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps missing after mission 17.04.45: Me 262 of IX. Fliegerkorps missing after mission 17.04.45: Me 262 of Jagdverband 44 lost on mission 19.04.45: Me 262 of I./K.G.(J) 54 shot down by enemy fighter while landing, pilot killed 29.04.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in strafing attack 29.04.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in strafing attack 29.04.45: Me 262 of II./K.G.(J) 54 destroyed in strafing attack SourcesGenst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. Luftwaffe Loss Material Kampfgeschwader 54 – von der Ju 52 zur Me 262 Luftwaffe Situation Reports 1945 As you can see combat losses are a lot more common than you stated. Also German air to air claims were pie in the sky. If they were to be believed, they shot down everybody's air force three times. The USAAF choose NOT to accelerate jet aircraft development and production because they knew they could end the war with existing types and that the 262 did not pose the air superiority threat you stated. BTW the plane does bleed speed, the wing and two engines in nacelles will ensure this happens. The defects in the aircraft are numerous. It's not a plane for new pilots and Germans simply didn't have enough experienced ones. The laws of attrition apply here. It also needs a huge amount of service to stay flying. Having twin engines makes that even worse. It's the curse of the P38 multiplied several times. You've got maybe 20 hours on each engine and for practical purposes you're living on borrowed time past 10. The aircraft also put a massive drain on the German logistics and industry. They probably manufactured as many as they were capable of and likely more then a few they should not have. Hell, the Germans could never even replace the Mark IV Panzer because their industry didn't allow it.
That's not true in several respects. Although the B-24 could carry more bombs (8,800#) compared to the B-17 (6,600#), the B-17, especially the E model, was known for its ruggedness and ability to return from combat. At the beginning of the war, the US was the only nation to have a strategic bomber. Germany and Japan only had medium bombers like the Heinkel 111 (4,400#) and Mitsubishi GM4 (2,205#). Although both did develop "heavy bombers", they were either very few or limited in range. The Heinkel could be loaded up with over 7,000# of bombs on external racks, but it could barely make it across the Channel with that load. As for targets, the US pioneered daylight precision bombing against military targets but, as you noted, the cost was high. The Brits stayed with night area bombing resulting in more crews returning home, but higher civilian casualties http://www.aviation-history.com/boeing/b17.html http://www.aviation-history.com/consolidated/b24.html https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=99 http://www.aviation-history.com/mitsubishi/g4m.html
How many USA fighters taking off from the UK were over Germany in 1942? I could again explain why your chart doesn't prove what you want to prove, but that would just be repeating myself. Put a P51 solo with no other support P51s over the UK with 20 minutes of flying time having to land against a squadron of ME109s following it down and how that would end? I could then claim I proved the P51 was worthless - adding that one small bullet or anything else hitting the radiator and the P51 would never see home again and other P51 shortcomings - while it was lack of numbers was the reason for the lose. At their peak, Germany had only 200 262s to put in the air and few of those were together enough even to make 1 squadron. 2-3 years too late. Far too little even then. The reason the 262 had to yo yo to slow down for its guns was that it could not bleed off air speed fast enough. A design need noted was air brakes. Jet engines generally do not produce much drag while they are running - only when they are not - meaning the 262 got in trouble for speed lose only with a flame out. It appears that you do not consider the difference between 1942 and 1945 in terms of WW2 in the air war and war overall. If Germany had put the 262 into mass production starting in 1941, they would have gained air superiority - and that would have completely altered the war. A few 262s or 5,000 262s in 1945 would not have changed the outcome. By 1945, Germany was already defeated. Squadrons of F16s couldn't have saved Germany. Nothing, other than atom bombs, could have saved Germany in 1945 because nothing was going to stop the Russians massive growing arsenal of unhindered production and millions of hardened troops with blood lust to use them - with our unlimited and unhindered growing arsenal coming at Germany from the West at the same time. We could throw 100,000 aircraft at Germany and every form of equipment as fast as ships could bring it. Russia was fielding another 2000 T34s per month - and Russian artillery barrages numbered into millions of shells. I did the math and in one pre-attack bombardment, Russia covered a 10 square mile zone with an average of one artillery round every 20 square feet. Had the German command not have seen it coming and retreated just before this, Germany would have lost the war to Russia on that day. It was over. Everyone but Hitler and some civilians knew it. Hitler was insane with pretend armies that no longer existed. We'll just have to disagree. My view is that if Hitler had put 262s and other German jets into mass production starting in 1941 it would have made our bombing untenable and given Germany air superiority over Europe (but not the UK). With that - and an extra year of survival - the war would have gone very differently - and would have been decided by who got the atom bomb first. It was a race Germany started by being far ahead. Your stance is that the 262 could not have saved Germany in 1945. I agree because nothing could have saved Germany in 1945.
As a comment about speed bleed off. In combat, speed bleed off when powering down is a plus, not a drawback. Just like a sailing ship must have both sails and anchors to survive. In air combat, the ability to rapidly slow down is a plus, not a minus. Among all the technological advances of aircraft, air brakes have to be included.
It all is a bit relative. Probably everyone would agree the P51 was superior to the P40. But not in every situation. The P51 could climb faster, dive faster and was faster. The P51 also could bug out (run away) if a dog fight was going badly. BUT, in a dog fight, the P40 could turn tighter and most had superior firepower than a P51. The P40 also a tad more rugged. So a P51 was superior - except circumstantially when it wasn't. The ME262 was superior by most measures - except circumstantially when it wasn't. Also, the value of a new design is not measured in its first version - but in its last version. The evolution of the P47 (improvements) and P51 are examples. The question isn't just what the first ME262s could do. But what would the ME262 and other German jets have become between 1941 and 1945 as knowledge and technical improvements came along.
Actually the North American Aviation AT-6 Texan is a war bird. Saw them in Vietnam being flown by the South Vietnamese Air Force.
There is a lot wrong with your post: 1. You act like the allies had thousands of aircraft just sitting around Britain in the interceptor bases in South East England doing nothing. They didn’t. They had moved most of those aircraft to other theaters, for instance the Pacific or to the Mediterranean to support the invasion of Italy or escort bombers attacking Germany from the south. The V-1 attacks forced the allies to move a number of fighter wings back to England and delay the deployment to aircraft to other theaters. It also interfered with the use of fighters on “friejagd” missions over Europe. Instead of flying over France and the Low Countries shooting everything painted feldgrau, they were having to sit scramble ready to shoot down flying bombs that cost a fraction of what those planes did to build and support. 2. You aren’t understanding the logistics of what you are talking about. What does Germany give up to build 4 engined strategic bombers and when do they give it up? They can only produce so many aircraft engines, only have so much factory space, only has so many pilots, fuel supplies, etc. If they want to produce strategic bombers, they have to give up something. Do they give up production of two engined bombers before the war? Do they switch over to the production of strategic bombers after France falls? If scenario A, they probably don’t ever have to worry about invading Russia and destroying factories beyond the Urals because they don’t have the tactical bombers they need to support the Battle of France and they are still bogged down fighting there. Two engined tactical bombers were key to supporting the Blitzkrieg in France. Having less of them means there’s a good chance they don’t succeed in knocking France out of the war. If scenario B, that gives them less than a year’s worth of production of strategic bombers, less than a year’s worth of squadron service and training crews on them, less than a year’s worth of perfecting tactics and equipment necessary for precision bombing from high altitude. So they would end up sending a relatively small number of untested, unproven, inexperienced strategic bombers and their crews against the Ural factories. And while we’re on this topic, Germany never had good long range escort fighters. So either those bombers are going to face crippling losses in day bombing raids unescorted against Russian interceptors and flak, losses the industry of Germany can’t sustain. Or they are going to have to do night bombing raids, which WW2 showed were wildly ineffective at actually hitting and destroying factories. Of course, they could always postpone the invasion until they build. sufficient bombers to go after the Ural factories, but in that case, you have both the temptation by Hitler to waste the bomber force in attacks on Britain in retaliation for British bombing of Germany, and also you have the Soviet military well into its full recovery from the purges and getting its equipment modernization in line. Now, when the Germans invade, instead of having a relative handful of T-34’s and KV-1’s and other modern equipment, those machines are in wide frontline division service and there’s a chance the invasion might be dead on arrival. 3. The British, especially with US manufacturing support, could have very quickly adjusted for mass production of jet engines. They didn’t historically because they didn’t need to. It would have caused production disruption to other engines they needed. But had the need arose in the form of widely deployed German jets, they would have jumped on it. And once production was in full swing, they could have outproduced Germany in the same quantities they did with everything else. Germany was 100% doomed after Stalingrad and Kursk. The losses they took in those fights were not sustainable by the Germany military. Everything after that point was just delaying the inevitable. I mean just look at Operation Bagration a year after Kursk. The German army stood no chance and the Soviets were a steamroller. You talk about jet aircraft of the time being short ranged, then you talk about German jets strafing trains? Where are the Germans going to be getting these long ranged jets from? The P-47 most definitely could reach Germany. It was one of the most successful escort fighters of the war. Have you never heard of drop tanks? Fun fact: Allied jet fighters were designed to be drop tank compatible. They could have appeared over Germany too. You realize there are combat records of Me-262’s being killed in dogfights with P-47’s, P-51’s, and Tempests (all of them escort fighters used by the allies), right? The Me-262 wasn’t inviclble to prop aircraft. They might have ended up being the Tigers of the air and achieving kill ratios of 6 or 8 to 1, but the allies would have been able to produce and field a dozen of their fighters for every 262 the Germans could build and field. And their fighters wouldn’t have **** engines that failed a lot nor would they have the serious problems with replacement pilot training the Germans did. Your German atomic bomb program nonsense: The Germans were many years away from any working atomic bomb at best. They had no bomber design even except purely theoretical ones on paper that could have carried the weight and size of an atom bomb. How does Germany get a bomber through to a London defended by lots of allied fighters to include jets? Same with Moscow once lend lease Meteors and P-80’s start showing up these? The only way Japan is getting an atom bomb to Los Angeles or Honolulu after 1943 is magical teleportation technology. You seriously need to look at how defunct the German and Japanese bomb programs were. The Japanese didn’t believe that they would ever have enough uranium to build a working bomb. One of the lead scientists of the German program believed the nuclear chain reactions were self-limiting. Had they actually built a reactor based on his principles, they would have resulted in a runaway criticality incident and irradiated half of Germany. Your “if only the Nazis didn’t do the Holocaust” nonsense: Then they wouldn’t have been Nazis. Full stop. It is the highest level of wehraboo nonsense. The Nazis committed the Holocaust and committed all of their other crimes against Jews because that was at the core of their ideology. Your Einstein nonsense: Where to start? Einstein had already left Germany before Hitler became Chancellor. Maja Einstein died in Princeton, not a concentration camp. The only reason he was on the Einstein-Szilard Letter was name recognition/fame. Szilard did most of the work convincing the US government to start the project and Einstein said later that had he known it would have resulted in an actual working bomb, he never would have signed it. The Vemork Hydro Dam was a target by allied high command long before the letter was written. Einstein played almost no part in actually building the atomic bombs. He was kept away from anything related to the project because he was a known pacifist. The “soft underbelly” plan was actually pushed by Churchill. The invasion of Italy was his baby. AND IT FAILED. The whole thing bogged down because Southern Europe is full of mountains that are incredibly easy to defend. This is a contrast with France, the Low Countries, and Western Germany, which are mostly open plains or forests. Your conclusion at the end is so wildly wrong, I can only assume you get your knowledge of history from ready Harry Turtledove novels.
So if you agree there was no such thing as high altitude precision bombing in WW2, then how exactly do you back your claim that German 4 engined strategic bombers could have knocked out the Soviet industry beyond the Urals?
There’s no way the Germans are getting the 262 into mass production in 1941. It only had its first flight that year. It needed at least a year of flight testing.
You're talking about a huge what if. It's sort of like that nonsense about Wakanda. Just remember that necessity is the mother of invention and that's what would have happened. And please. the ME 262 operational in 1941 is a fantasy. Hell, they had just introduced the FW by that time. BTW if you don't think engine nacelles don't cause drag I'd brush on some very basic physics. Ever wonder they didn't have air brakes? They didn't need them. The 262 bleed speed like a pig. You can just look at the design.
When it hit, it worked well. Germany had a thing for semi-auto AT guns as aircraft weapons (the Brits did too with their 40mm gun).
