Torture, is it wrong?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Elcarsh, Apr 25, 2018.

  1. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    Then all that is pretty irrelevant, since it doesn't work.
     
  2. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    So, where do you draw the line?
     
  3. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    In other words, you have no evidence whatsoever to support the idea that torture works.

    I'm not surprised.
     
  4. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No in other words, you will stare the evidence in the face and continue to ignore it

    I'm not surprised
     
  5. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    Hey, drop the strawman argument. You're not an ********, don't act like one.

    I'm on the boat that sails to "There are lengths to which I will never go".

    I'm going to ask you a third time, and I would really love it if you were to actually answer; Would you be prepared to do anything whatsoever to save lives?

    Would you torture someone who might be innocent?

    Would you torture someone who you knew was innocent?

    Would you kill an innocent person?

    Would you rape a family member of the person being interrogated to make them talk?

    Let's drop the facade of using torture being some kind of just and noble measure taken for the good of all. Let's hear the truth; how far will you go?

    It very well might. But I won't torture people, nor allow people to be tortured to save me. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not evil.
     
  6. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    Ehm...you have presented exactly zero cases of torture ever working.

    Not a single one.

    How can you not be able to put up at least one single case outside of the TV-show 24 where torture has actually worked? You're so certain that it works, but you have no evidence whatsoever that it ever has.

    <<MOD EDIT - Rule 3 - Flamebaiting removed - Lee S>>
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2018
  7. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    If irrefutable evidence is ever brought forward that torture does not in fact work at all then I won't support it. If evidence is brought forward that torture does in fact work "sometimes" or "under certain circumstances" then I will support it. It does work sometimes and under certain circumstances which is why I support it.

    Provide evidence that it NEVER works and I will no longer support it. My decision is based purely on the results it brings or lack thereof, not the moral aspect of hooking somebody up to a car battery.
     
  8. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    Oh come on, you're going to use inverted burden of evidence?

    But let's see it; you clearly have evidence that it works. Show it. Do what nobody else in this thread has even attempted to do; provide the evidence.
     
  9. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    rubbish, I presented you with an entire country with a legal and police system based on torture, with a very low crime rate and high crime solve rate which indicates success.

    <<MOD EDIT - Rule 3 - Removed Flamebaiting - Lee S>>
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2018
  10. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I don't personally have any evidence that it does or does not work, that's not my particular field of expertise. Plus even if it were, cases involving torturing enemies of the state are tightly kept secrets that I have no access to therefore I cannot personally confirm nor deny the usefulness of any forms of torture. It is however a practice that is continued to this day and has been in use for thousands of years so if it NEVER worked I would assume that the practice would have been discontinued by now.

    This seems more like a moral question over an actual question of results hence the title of the thread "Torture, is it wrong?" To me the question is loaded, it all depends on the situation same as asking "Killing, is it wrong?". That's not exactly a yes or no question either.
     
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  11. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    There is no line. My buddies, my unit, my country, right or wrong.
     
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  12. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    So you're perfectly fine with raping and/or killing perfectly innocent people for that goal?

    That says a lot.
     
  13. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    Not rape, can't do that, guess I do have a line. But I would begin carving somebody's sister up and hopefully not have to draw a lot of blood, in front of them to get info to save my buddies, my unit, my country.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2018
  14. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    You must see the flaw in just assuming that it works because it's still being practiced.

    Though if people did actually see the flaw in believing things based on no evidence whatsoever, the world would be a much better place than it currently is.

    I disagree, I think it's a simple "Yes" or "No" question. If it's wrong, it's always wrong. If it's right, even under very select circumstances, people will go to any lengths to rationalize it.

    Did the subject deserve it?

    Would it potentially save lives?

    Would it be more convenient than spending time on other means of coercion?

    Would it be cheaper?

    Would it allow the torturer to avoid having to follow due process?

    And the fact of the matter is that there are a number of treaties to which the US is a signatory that completely bans torture. But a whole lot of people are perfectly willing to ignore the fact that it is illegal.
     
  15. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    Well good, now we're getting somewhere. So, no rape.

    Why?
     
  16. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Alright fair, Torture, is it wrong? The answer is no.

    If torture provides the information one requests then go right ahead. If it doesn't then don't do it because it's pointless. The moral aspect of it has absolutely nothing to do with it, effectiveness is the only discussion.

    For example we have prisoner X. We need information from prisoner X. I am in support of whatever method necessary that will cause prisoner X to give up said information. Lets say prisoner X loves animals more than anything, especially cute furry ones. If prisoner X would give up the information by simply being given a pet bunny rabbit then I support giving him a pet bunny rabbit. If mental pain is what causes prisoner X to give up said information then I support forcing him to watch a video of a bunny rabbit being torn apart by wolves on continuously loop for hours days on end. If that doesn't work then I support putting him in a bunny rabbit costume and unleashing wolves on him.

    It's all about the most effective way to get the information required. I support whichever method is most effective whether that be simple acts of kindness or compassion to sticking somebody in an Iron Maiden.

    It's about what "works", not whether it's "right" or not.
     
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  17. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    It is true...

    ...which is why you're compelled to pretend this is always the case, in defense of your fraudulent sense of moral superiority.
    How do you figure that?
     
  18. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Should have phrased it better.

    Killing people for the hell of it is morally wrong. Killing people for a reason isn't. As with most things, it's circumstantial.
     
  19. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    I believed the prof in Psych 101 when he said rape was not about sex but about power. So I never tried it, was pretty sure I wouldn't like it.
     
  20. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What a stupid question in the context of war. Is killing wrong?

    War exists because some conflicts cannot be resolved peacefully. Is the opposite of peace immoral? It's easy to think it is until you think for a moment on what sort of things might cause you to violate peaceful behavior. Antifa, for example, thinks that violence in service of equality is moral.

    Morality has a heirarchy. Killing is wrong, but there are things that are more wrong than killing. That means that killing to prevent things that are more wrong can potentially be considered good.

    The question isn't whether torture is right or wrong. The question is, is it worse?

    Frankly, I'm not even sure it works. But if it does, is doing it worse than what it prevents?
     
  21. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You’re bringing in hypotheticals. But to answer your questions.


    Would you torture someone who might be innocent? I would say one has to be darn sure that whomever you might torture knows the answers to say another pending terrorist attack or where POW’s are located. These things always depend on the situation and circumstances. There is no fast or steady rule to go by. If one knew the person you held had planted a dirty bomb in NYC but was refusing to say where, of course use all means available to find out where and defuse. Not to do so would be condemning a lot of people to death, to harmful effects, to destruction and chaos that would follow. Would you just walk away and condemn all those folks to death knowing you could perhaps have stopped the whole thing?

    Would you torture someone who you knew was innocent? No, Someone knowing nothing about anything is useless.

    Would you kill an innocent person? Same answer, someone knowing nothing of a pending attack is useless. Shuffle off to some POW camp.

    Would you rape a family member of the person being interrogated to make them talk? How’d this get into it?


    It very well might. But I won't torture people, nor allow people to be tortured to save me. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not evil. I think the family members of those killed by an attack you could have prevented would think you are evil. But it all goes back to the situation and circumstance. That no one can sit down with pen and paper and write out what they would or wouldn’t do until that situation arises and whomever has to make that decision himself then and there.


    This is a game of what if’s. Most people haven’t been in a situation where one’s actions or non-actions may determine who lives or dies. I find that it is that group that always ask the what if’s questions. But since when is saving lives of innocents or your buddies considered evil?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  22. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    War can even be fun at times. When you outwit the enemy and get beaucoup easy kills and lose none of your own -- that is really fun. But it's rare.
     
  23. altmiddle

    altmiddle Well-Known Member

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    No
     
  24. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    AZ. and Elcarsh like this.
  25. Elcarsh

    Elcarsh Well-Known Member

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    Obviously this is a very emotive issue for me, and I do tend to get carried away.

    I just want to take a moment to apologize to anyone I may have insulted.
     

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