Sincere request to help me understand why you feel abortion is not murder.

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Left Of Genghis Khan, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. clg311

    clg311 Well-Known Member

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    Abortion has nothing to do "rights."
     
  2. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    YES, it does. You may not believe this but pregnant women have the same rights as anyone else.
     
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  3. clg311

    clg311 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks to the women who fought for equal rights and the right to vote, not abortion extremists.
     
  4. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    YES, it does. You may not believe this but pregnant women have the same rights as anyone else.





    What is an "abortion extremist"?
     
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  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The right to remain pregnant.
     
  6. clg311

    clg311 Well-Known Member

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    Someone who wants abortion on demand until the baby is born, wants taxpayers to pay for abortions, trivializes feminism by equating a selfish act that usually could been prevented if they had engaged in protected sex as a civil rights issue, attacks anyone who disagrees with them as anti-women. Calls anyone who wants to defund Planned Parenthood as opposing women's health.
     
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Shall we apply these same standards to the woman?
     
  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Or not....unless there's an "or not" then rights have been taken away.
     
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  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    Anyone may consider abortion immoral as long as they don't try to use their idea of "morals" to control others and take away their rights.....



    Uh, ya, that's what "anyone" means.

    But you specify "the woman"...what woman is that?
     
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  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You mean women are not allowed to impose their version of morality onto someone else?
     
  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    I don't anyone like that.


    ,



    I don't know anyone like that.



    Pregnant women have a right to their own body just as you do.....why don't you think they should have rights taken away because they became pregnant?

    Does everyone who does something "selfish" in your eyes deserve to have their rights taken away?




    YES, anyone who thinks pregnant women should have their rights taken away IS anti-woman.



    .

    They are.
     
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  12. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    No, they're not and shouldn't be.....why are you focusing on women? Men shouldn't force their morals on anyone either.

    Did you have a point?

    Oops, usually when I ask if you have a point you stop responding :) (like your Panda thread :teddy:)


    I asked why you specified "woman" and again , you can't answer......
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
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  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you do believe in taking away pregnant women's rights after a certain point in the pregnancy?
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  14. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    clg311 said:
    Someone who wants abortion on demand until the baby is born""""


    FoxHastings: ""I don't know anyone like that."""




    Coming to that conclusion from my statement you quoted ..Well, let's just say I call that your "" Pandas Have Something to Do With Abortion 'Logic' " :)

    Do you know what "I don't know anyone like that" means?



    Isn't it funny how I can answer all your questions BUT you can't answer all of mine ( or even any questions of mine)....

    that sure looks like I have the answers and you have nothing :)
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
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  15. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because murder is legally defined as unlawful killing, and abortion is legal. So abortion is just legal killing.

    However. Murder is typically understood to mean unnecessary killing outside of the legal setting, which is to say: I understand your frustration.

    Those who defend abortion typically view most abortions as necessary- the 'fetus' (a clinical term that is oft used as a means to dehumanize the unborn BABY HUMAN imo) either represents an undesired financial threat (which I would remind folks is similar to shooting a burglar who's trying to take your necessary resources) or stands to live an unprivledged life as a result of scarce necessary resources (not a good reason to kill, imo) which ostencibly comes from a desire to see less folks struggling with poverty.

    As you may have guessed, Im no fan of abortion.

    However, I support it remaining legal and unrestricted (though I staunchly resist the notion that my taxes ought to pay for it- not my business, not my responsibility, not my fault, against my beleifs) because body autonomy is important to individual liberty, and laws should not be based on morals (murder is illegal because its disorderly to a socially destabilizing degree [which abortion isn't], not because its wrong). Restricting/banning abortion sets the legal precedent that society can control what we do to our bodys. Restricted abortion is the first hurdle down the road to things like mandatory vaccinations, forced sterilization or even forced impregnation and forced abortion. If we delegate the authority or sovereignty of our own bodys over to the collective, the mob of democratic rule, we open the doors for anything to be done to us that a majority can be manufactured to support.

    I hate abortion. But I love Liberty. Laws are not the way to fight abortion. Education, underprivledged child support programs, less financial blockage to adoption, even social pressuring are all examples of voluntary alternatives for reducing abortion that dont endanger our personal liberty.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you're making intentionally misleading statements as part of an argumentative tactic?

    When someone tries to pin you down on what you believe, or point out the inconsistencies of your position, you just throw out a red herring.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  17. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Uh, no, ...........and yes, you have no point :) How's the Panda wandas?

    I never made a misleading point.....



    When someone tries to get you to make a point or asks you an INCONVENIENT question you go into "red herring/strawman" mode :)


    AGAIN: You can't seem to state a point ( much like your Pandas Are Cute Thread..and your other threads)



    Coming to that conclusion from my statement you quoted ..Well, let's just say I call that your "" Pandas Have Something to Do With Abortion 'Logic' " :)

    Do you know what "I don't know anyone like that" means?



    Isn't it funny how I can answer all your questions BUT you can't answer all of mine ( or even any questions of mine)....

    that sure looks like I have the answers and you have nothing :)
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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  18. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You do pretty good until ""the 'fetus' (a clinical term that is oft used as a means to dehumanize the unborn BABY HUMAN imo)"""


    Yes, a zygote is called a zygote because that's what it is, it's called a fetus because that's what it is and a baby is called a baby because that's what it is and a teenager is called a teenager because that's what it is and a senior is called a senior because that's what it is and you think someone is calling them those terms to dehumanize them ??

    However ,if anti-Choicers want to promote the idea that women carry a fully formed Gerber baby from the moment of conception because they hate and fear science there's not much I can do about that....:)
     
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  19. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Excellent post for the most part, but....you failed to recognize that there are other valid reasons for abortion besides financial reasons, although that is sufficient. Pregnancy/childbirth disrupts a woman's life, she cannot just carry on as usual, give birth, then go about her business as though nothing happened. Pregnancy/childbirth is risky to a woman's health/life and she may not be willing to take that risk. Shouldn't it be her choice? A woman may be not be willing to spend the next 18 years of her life rearing a child (don't come back with adoption, adoption is actually more psychologically damaging than abortion).
     
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  20. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Damaging to whom?

    I presume you mean the mother (in which case you'll need to provide some evidence for that claim) as being killed/not existing is not a preferable experience to suffering in the vast majority of situations, so such a claim would not make sense if referencing damage to the aborted.

    Which does bring up an important disconnect between the pro-choice and pro-life in the context of the OP. Pro-Choice tend to prioritize the mother over the child, Pro-Life tend to prioritize the child over the mother. I think both are a misguided, simplistic view, however neither are necessarily more 'right or wrong' than the other, but merely a difference of fundamental values that leads to an impasse in the overall debate.
     
  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    There is NO impasse, abortion is legal as it should be IF women retain the same rights everyone else has.

    Of course the woman is prioritized over the FETUS...she is a BORN person with rights.






    Here's the evidence of damage you asked for :
    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.


    You : "" as being killed/not existing is not a preferable experience to suffering in the vast majority of situations""

    A fetus has no ability to have a preference for anything.... a person does.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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  22. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Mr. modernpaladin, a woman is not a mother until she has a born child. I am glad you recognize that pregnancy/childbirth can be a source of tremendous suffering as well as great joy, depending entirely on circumstances and attitudes. That is because a woman is capable of suffering, rejoicing, and an entire range of emotion and responses. A fetus is not. A fetus cannot suffer the loss of something it has not experienced, and it cannot experience joy, desire, plans for the future, or anything at all. A fetus has only the possibility of achieving that in the future, and a woman is not obligated to make sure that future is achieved, especially considering the significant cost to herself.

    The disconnect you speak of is partially caused by the semantic disconnect so many subscribe to, which is referring to a pregnant woman as a "mother", and a fetus as if it were already a "child." Accuracy in language would increase "connectedness."
     
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  23. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    You are making a great many fallacious assumptions that are based upon an absence of factual information.

    Have you ever bothered to look at the studies of what happens to unwanted children when they grow up? They tend towards being underachievers with higher than average criminal behavior and drug use according to the scientific studies. Furthermore this begins right from the unwanted birth as this study indicates.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3775543/

    How is it "responsible" to impose upon an unborn fetus the greater likelihood of a lifetime of failure that comes from being born as an unwanted child?

    Where are the anti-abortionists stepping up to the plate to ensure that these unwanted children have equal opportunities at success in life? Where is their funding for daycare and special education that would make these outcomes less likely? Why are they not promoting all of these positive initiatives that make life better for these unwanted children?

    The abject FAILURE to do any of the above exposes the HYPOCRISY of only "caring about the UNBORN" while grossly NEGLECTING those that they have FORCED into the SUBOPTIMAL life of an UNWANTED child.
     
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  24. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    When someone tries to pin you down on what you believe, or point out the inconsistencies of your position you just disappear from the thread :)
     
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  25. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    They personify it .
     
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