Ranked Vote: How To Reform Redistricting And End Political Gerrymandering?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Meta777, Jun 8, 2018.

  1. redeemer216

    redeemer216 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    421
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I don't disagree that district voting is good in theory, but in practice this system is easily corrupted through statistical error or human bias (gerrymandering). The reason why we think gerrymandering is such an issue is because this system can easily be exploited by the party system. Draw the lines in this way so that it's more likely a democrat is going to be elected in all districts. The problem is not district voting, the problem is how it's enacted in practice can lead to a myriad of issues regarding people actually getting an equal vote because of how many variables there are when drawing these lines.

    My thoughts are just to get rid of districts entirely; still maintaining a proportional vote so that the rural areas can still elect their constituency, so that this corruption cannot happen. Even so, I still see the merits of local voting for seats, because as you say, different areas of the state have different needs. And there are ways of both minimizing corruption and simplifying the drawing of districts, hopefully eliminating gerrymandering, while still keeping the district system.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  2. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    150,178
    Likes Received:
    62,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    is kinda sad that with all the republican gerrymandering they still are losing often, they should of left as was, karma smacking them in the behind
     
  3. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Messages:
    31,814
    Likes Received:
    13,377
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think that what it proves is that gerrymandering isn't effective which goes to the point of this thread.
     
  4. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Messages:
    31,814
    Likes Received:
    13,377
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am failing to see how a proportional vote can be as effective at meeting the needs of the overs as our current system is.

    Please explain how the majority in a city (where most votes will come from) address the needs of the rural people.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  5. redeemer216

    redeemer216 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    421
    Trophy Points:
    83
    What you have to understand is that even with district voting, districts are still equally proportioned to population. If 20 percent of the population is rural, in either system, 20 percent of the votes/seats should come from rural areas, and with either system, the needs of that 20 percent would be met by having 20 percent of the votes/seats. The only difference with district voting, is that, the districts which house the rural population "may" be able to put forward a more local constituency more directly and easily (why I still see it's merits). Even with proportional voting the rural population should be able to vote for their local candidate and get him into one of the seats because they still have 20 percent of the total vote. With 10 seats total that means they could fill 2 seats in congress. We are dealing with a relative majority with proportional voting, a majority (50 percent) is not required to fill seats.

    Even so, there may be a compromise and a way to have a little of both systems. But so far I haven't come up with it.
     
  6. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Messages:
    31,814
    Likes Received:
    13,377
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If they produce the same results I'm failing to see the problem here.

    What is it again?

    Still, to this point in the thread, nobody has shown the problem.

    Did George get elected and you don't think he should have?

    Where is the problem you guys are so concerned with?

    How would a different system produce results you find more favorable and what are those results you are looking for?
     
  7. redeemer216

    redeemer216 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    421
    Trophy Points:
    83
    It's almost like you pick and choose when reading the responses on this topic. I've said many times as well as many others, both are equal in theory. They are not equal in practice. Gerrymandering the district system (human bias or statistical error when drawing the lines) corrupts what would otherwise be an entirely fair system. Because of gerrymandering, both systems are not equal.

    What I would find more favorable is a system which produces results that always roughly match what the population voted for. Proportional voting is always going to give results that match with what the population voted for and doesn't need to worry about districts being drawn with a bias. With gerrymandering, in many cases, that is simply not the case. If 20 percent of the population in a state voted for one party, then that party should have roughly 20 percent of the seats. We have seen many times, this did not occur when gerrymandering was done (the people were not represented). You can look at examples in California, North Carolina and so on.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering
    "Grace Napolitano, a Democrat, who ran unopposed in 2004" because of gerrymandering
    And many more examples
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  8. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Messages:
    31,814
    Likes Received:
    13,377
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What population.

    Whites have a 64.9 voter participation rate and are roughly 70% of the voting population.

    Should they decide what happens in the nation just because they have the numbers?

    According to you, yes they should.
     
  9. redeemer216

    redeemer216 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    421
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The entire voting population.

    First, you are assuming all whites vote the same, which is obviously not the case.

    Second, yes, whites should determine roughly 70 percent of congressional representation as congress is represented by the people as a whole.

    Third, I don't see the issue as that is how both a republic or a democracy works both here in the US and in the rest of the west. If you don't like democracy you are free to move to a dictatorship where less than 1 percent of the population determines 100 percent of state policy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  10. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Messages:
    31,814
    Likes Received:
    13,377
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Here is the problem.

    Lets take the last four elections, that gives you ample room to find evidence, and show us how the results should have been different under a better system.

    You say the system isn't fair.

    Why not?

    What is your proof of that?

    So take the last four elections and show us how your system would have produced more favorable results.

    Go ahead, I will wait.
     
  11. redeemer216

    redeemer216 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    421
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Which elections, which state? It doesn't happen in every state every election. But it has happened and I've already given you an entire list of when it's happened. The fact it has happened means it can and will happen again, which is the issue. I've given evidence of gerrymandering leading to elections which did not lead to outcomes proportional to the states votes as a whole. You don't accept the evidence as enough, which is fine so I'll leave you too your vote.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  12. redeemer216

    redeemer216 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    421
    Trophy Points:
    83
    No, and no. That's not how gerrymandering works. It doesn't necessarily happen in every election. You don't get it and I'm done restating things again and again. It's pointless.
     
  13. redeemer216

    redeemer216 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    421
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The ignorance here is astounding. No, just no. Also so many straw-men, so much so, the entire post is meaningless.

    "Every single district is gerrymandered, that is the definition of the word." No, it isn't.

    "Its why we draw districts in the first place." No, we draw districts so the local populous can be represented by a local constituency, not to favor a party. That may be an unwanted consequence...
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  14. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Messages:
    31,814
    Likes Received:
    13,377
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If you have something you disagree with then state it, until that time the only "strawman" is coming from you.

    I will be here when you are ready.
     
  15. redeemer216

    redeemer216 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    421
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I've stated my agreements very directly earlier on.
    You directly made up a ton of things I "believed", to prove some unknown point, so no.

    "until that time the only "strawman" is coming from you." Sure...
     
  16. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2013
    Messages:
    31,814
    Likes Received:
    13,377
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Here is one of your earlier quotes.

    You offered no proof of this claim so if you want to live up to your name then prove it.

    I will wait.
     
  17. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Letters assigned. This thread is open for voting.
    If anyone wants to vote for something not on the list, just add it into your rankings list as a "write-in".
    Options are linked to politicalforum posts which describe the options in greater detail.

    How To Reform Redistricting And End Political Gerrymandering?:
    A. Use Automated Algorithm to Draw Maps Based on Key Principles of Fairness
    B. Algorithm: Square-Rectangle Method
    C. Algorithm: Shortest Split Line Method
    D. Algorithm: Ring Method
    E. Algorithm: Ring Method (Quadrant)
    F. Algorithm: Ring Method (Multi Segmented)

    G. Limit District Lines to County Borders
    H. Require Districts to Meet a Complexity Ratio Standard
    I. Require Districts to Meet a Proportionality Ratio Standard

    J. Use Bipartisan Councils
    K. Use Independent Commissions

    L. Party-list Proportional Representation
    M. Single Transferable Vote
    N. Mixed-member Proportional Representation

    O. Use Panel-Decided Algorithm + Map Approval by Independent Commission
    P. Two District States (Rural/not Rural) + District Level Proportional Vote
    Q. Leave Things as They Are (Status Quo Option)
    R. Don't Feel Qualified/Knowledgeable Enough To Vote In This Poll
    S. No Strong Feelings One Way Or The Other


    Remember, to vote here, all you need to do is list the options/their labels in order of preference,...
    you don't have to rank them all, but the more options you do rank, the more chances your ballot has to have an impact on the final result.
    See example ballot below for reference on formatting:
    B, C, D, F, H, M, 9, 8, 4, 3

    B. Automation-Induced Job-Loss
    C. Unemployment and Underemployment in General
    D. Partisan Dysfunction in Congress
    F. Too Many Restrictions on Abortion
    H. Too Much Gun Violence
    M. Global Warming
    9. Homelessness
    8. Overpopulation
    4. Campaign Finance Laws
    3. Economic and Social Inequality

    Have fun,

    -Meta
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  18. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This one is actually easy.

    M. Single Transferable Vote

    This option eliminates all of the problems associated with districts, boundaries, gerrymandering, proportionality, complexities of the voter demographics, etc, etc, etc.

    Everyone gets to vote for all candidates on a ranked ballot. You can split your vote between parties and you can vote for everyone you like rather than only the fixed choices that you would otherwise have to decide.

    Even better is that the end results are verifiable by everyone.

    Not even going to bother with the other choices because this one is the ONLY one that solves ALL of the problems.
     
    Meta777 likes this.
  19. redeemer216

    redeemer216 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    421
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Turned out to be a fairly easy choice. No having to worry about lines being drawn that could give an unfair advantage to a specific group. The entire population is represented and you can split your vote between parties/candidates, that way your vote is not widdled down to a yes/no in what is a pluralistic vote.

    M. Single Transferable Vote
    P1. Two District States (Rural/not Rural) + District Level Proportional Vote (Single Transferable Vote): 1 District in the case of States with 1 Seat

    Second choice because I want to give rural folks the ability to choose their own list of nominees.
     
    Meta777 likes this.
  20. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Here's my vote. And yeah, I guess this one was pretty easy.
    I ended up ranking the square algorithm and ratio standards above STV though,
    just because even though I really like STV I think that the algorithm and standards
    are easier to understand and wouldn't be as big of a change from what we currently have.

    A,H,I,B,M,F,D,O,C,E,N,L,K,P,G,J

    A. Use Automated Algorithm to Draw Maps Based on Key Principles of Fairness
    H. Require Districts to Meet a Complexity Ratio Standard
    I. Require Districts to Meet a Proportionality Ratio Standard
    B. Algorithm: Square-Rectangle Method
    M. Single Transferable Vote
    F. Algorithm: Ring Method (Multi Segmented)
    D. Algorithm: Ring Method
    O. Use Panel-Decided Algorithm + Map Approval by Independent Commission
    C. Algorithm: Shortest Split Line Method
    E. Algorithm: Ring Method (Quadrant)
    N. Mixed-member Proportional Representation
    L. Party-list Proportional Representation
    K. Use Independent Commissions
    P. Two District States (Rural/not Rural) + District Level Proportional Vote
    G. Limit District Lines to County Borders
    J. Use Bipartisan Councils
     
    Derideo_Te likes this.
  21. redeemer216

    redeemer216 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    421
    Trophy Points:
    83

    Gonna change my vote slightly.

    M. Single Transferable Vote
    P1. Two District States (Rural/not Rural) + District Level Proportional Vote (Single Transferable Vote): 1 District in the case of States with 1 Seat
    A. Use Automated Algorithm to Draw Maps Based on Key Principles of Fairness
     
    Meta777 likes this.
  22. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Alrighty, consider it changed, :smile:
     
  23. BestViewedWithCable

    BestViewedWithCable Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2010
    Messages:
    48,288
    Likes Received:
    6,966
    Trophy Points:
    113

    They only want to change it because theyre not in power.
     
  24. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Who is "they"?
    Nvm, care to cast a vote?

    -Meta
     
  25. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    15,617
    Likes Received:
    1,730
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Found this pretty informative video describing STV.
    Its the animals again.They seem to have a lot of stuff like this.
     
    Derideo_Te likes this.

Share This Page