Russia kills its F-35 Killer

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Thedimon, Jul 13, 2018.

  1. freddy62

    freddy62 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  2. k995

    k995 Well-Known Member

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    Talking about the past decade, while in 2014-15 russia build 100+ planes its now not even half of that.

    Of course the economy is going bad, could also explain it.
     
  3. freddy62

    freddy62 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Mate I live in Australia and our English can be a bit different to what is spoken in Yankistan :icon_picknose: but if you really are having a hard time with the link just google Keypublishing forum/modern military aviation then go to the correct thread. Just a word of warning though US and Russian stronkists have been having a go at each other on the Su-57 threads causing them to be deleted on a regular basis.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  4. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Stronkist"?
     
  5. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    The topic of air fighting is quite complicated and also "contaminated" with a personal view ... a rational assessment is therefore quite difficult.

    The main difference between the US and Russia, but also between the US and many other Europeans is the focus on the BVR ... that is, the fight against an enemy jet "beyond visible range".
    Here, in contrast to all others, the US clearly put the focus on BVR at 70/30 as regards the stealth capability, the armament such as the AIM-120 missile, the long range radars, etc. ... but this is also a decrease in the Dog Fight causes capacity and ability.

    For the European NATO members and neutral ones like Sweden, the situation is more balanced and here the Dog Fight continues to play an important role. The Typhoon or the Rafale sufficient BVR skills, are also able to capture stealth in the BVR area and they use their own missiles as well as the AIM-120. In the Dog Fight, both are ... how various Red Flag and other exercises have shown it to be superior to the F-22 ... although this is also relatively visible, because in Dog Fight much depends on the ability and training of the pilot and Since the US pilots train less because of the BVW center of gravity, it does not have to be on the F-22.

    For the Russians, the emphasis is even more on the Dog Fight, but they can also make BVR fights successful.
    Only as far as the general BVR abilities are concerned, the rating is very difficult and unfortunately for lack of tangible facts very contaminated with silly chattering on both sides. Take as an example the Mig-29, which by the way was largely replaced in Russia by the Mig-35:
    The Iraqi Mig-29s were only victims but not opponents for the US F-15 and the AIM-120. A few years later, however, with the same Mig-29 from Serbia, things looked quite different with regard to BVR. There were several issues and in one could a Serbian Mig-29 fend off not only in the BVR equal to 4 shot down AIM-120 (2 of a US F-15 and 2 of 2 different Dutch F-16), but in the BVR and Beginning Dog Fight Range bringing 3 NATO counterattack into extreme trouble.
    Conclusion: one and the same aircraft and same armament, etc., but 2 different well trained pilots and 2 completely different results! And so the speculative question is also whether a well-trained Russian pilot would have done even better than the Serb!

    As for the Dog Fight, only stupid and unsuspecting persons deny that the Russian planes and pilots are top notch. If you look at the Russian Dog Fight maneuvers, you are amazed!
     
  6. freddy62

    freddy62 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I may have created a word there but usually expressed as USA stronk, Russia stronk, etc.
    Basically very extreme nationalistic support for own (aircraft in this case but insert whatever) and deride to the extreme what the other nation has.
     
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  7. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    No such thing as luck, no. Them Russkies paid the iron price, like they say on GoT - they didn't won because of the lukewarm, leftover stuff you send them.

    If the USSR didn't entered WWII, you guys would probably have lost the war... England would have fell for sure.
     
  8. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    Yeah sure... you guys would have the Russkies beaten even before you did the Germans huh?

    Ha ha ha come on dude.
     
  9. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    The problem was that Tchang Kai-Chek ("Peanut", as he was called by Vinegar Joe) was rather reluctant to use his US-backed military force to fight the Japaneses (that he all but ignored); He would rather keep it to fight the commies in his own country, when he wasn't paranoid about the said force turning commie itself.
     
  10. MVictorP

    MVictorP Well-Known Member

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    The F-22 isn't just a 5th gen showcase - It is also an excellent dogfighting aircraft... as an interceptor, it's its first job. The F-22 can resist even the most agile eurocanards such as the Typhoon or Rafale (something the F-16 can also do).

    The F-35 lacks such a focus: Its mission requirements and goals constantly shifted during development, and standards were lowered to permit what is believed an all-around platform, able to exercize air superiority as well as ground support. The problem with such Jacks-of-all-trades, of course, is that they are masters of none, so there's a big chance that the F-35 will be out-perfomed by lesser, yet more specialized machines in their respective roles.

    Regarding training: Like I wrote a good pilot in a mediocre machine will beat a mediocre pilot in a good machine: If the US can't get more flight time out of their F-35s, their pilots' skills are going to suffer somewhat (VR training isn't equal to real-life one yet).
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
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  11. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The "Dog Fight" scenario is no longer even relevant in air to air combat as the goal has become complexly avoiding even moderately close contact. It is preferred to eliminate an enemy before you can see them and in this regard the United States owns the game....this would be why nations invest in U.S. technology.
     
  12. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Very good post and I can almost completely agree!

    Of course I did not mean that the F-22 in the Dog Fight is anything or inferior ... but the Typhoon and Rafale are just better in there, because designed for it.

    Basically, there is of course the approach that a successful BVR makes the Dog Fight superfluous, but how successful is the BVR actually and makes the Dog Fight superfluous?
    The discussion here is endless and you can open your own forum for that ... so I'm saving myself to go into that.

    I'd just like to point out that the US has ever relied on BVR and awakened evil in the rivalry ... with the F-4 Phantom in Vietnam.
     
  13. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    The story of aerial combat has taught one thing ... Every time you want to get away from the dog fight and look at it as obsolete, you fell badly on the face!
    As I wrote in the previous post, I will certainly not start here and in general a discussion on that point ... because you can argue about it endlessly and in the end, only opposing, personal opinions and conclusions collide without getting a result.
     
  14. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nationalist chest-beating is pathetic, and also stupid if it infects the people who actually make life-and-death decisions.

    I recall reading somewhere that in the 1930s, it was generally believed in the West that the Japanese could only imitate Western technology -- there's a funny story about a Scots shipbuilders, bidding on a contract to build destroyers for the Japanese Imperial Navy, sending Japan plans for a destroyer which deliberately had the center of gravity such that the ship, if the plans were just copied and then built by Japan, would capsize upon launch. Probably apocryphal but ... wouldn't you want to believe it?

    And then there was the one about how Japanese pilots would be slaughtered in dogfights because ... they had slanty eyes and thus poor peripheral vision.

    But then it turned out that these stories had been circulated by the Japanese themselves.

    Probably it's all a load of codswallop, but the lesson is valid.... don't underestimate your (possible) opponent. Yes, yes, the Russians are backward ... remind me again ... what's the name of the first man in space?
     
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  15. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Ignorance, arrogance, self-overestimation of one's own abilities and underestimation of an opponent are always the first step in getting a kick in the ass ;-)

    As far as BVR is concerned, the example of the F-4 Phantom is well suited. It should be so perfect for the BVR with the then latest equipment and the great Sidewiunder and Sparrow missiles, that the Dog Fight was superfluous and obsolete from now on and it was also dispensed with an on-board cannon ... and the pilots no longer trained the dog fight etc.
    Then came the rude awakening in the skies of North Vietnam and a few outdated Mig-17s and later also new Mig-21s at that time taught the US a better one. As an emergency measure Gatling Gun Pods were first placed under the fuselage to make the Dog Fight, later followed by a built-Borkanone and the pilots had, if they want to survive, quickly teach the Dog Fight again, or he was then trained again.
    Not that the USa repeat an error with the F-22 and F-35!
     
  16. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    S-400 owns this game. Which is why nations invest in Russian technology.
     
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  17. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While the s400 system is indeed very good, it has limitations as seen in Syria.
     
  18. zoom_copter66

    zoom_copter66 Well-Known Member

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    Uh huh...pffft. I think you got it backwards.....if the ...USA....hadn't entered the war, when we did, most of Europe would've been under German jackboot, north Africa would've been subdued by Rommel, Egypt would've been a Nazi satellite, no Isreal state, and Germany would've controlled 70%+ of world oil, fuelling their war machine....endlessly.:)
     
  19. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If it hasn't already been written, there is a book to be done on how much British and American aid helped the Russians. The archives should be accessible now ... perhaps someone has done it?
     
  20. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  21. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Israeli F-35 recently damaged (forced to crash-land) by Syrian forces (saved only by the quite miraculous actions of accompanying Israeli F-15 squadron) indicates no need of developing 'F-35 Killer'. Existing SA missile batteries can apparently take care of the F-35 just fine.

    What a boondoggle...
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
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  22. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    However, the evidence cited by Southfront seems rather tenuous. Hours after the Israeli military announced the strike on the Syrian missile battery, Israeli media reported that an Israeli F-35 had been damaged by a bird strike two weeks before (Google translation here ). The plane reportedly landed safely, but the Israeli Air Force did admit that it wasn’t sure whether the plane will fly again. Israel has taken delivery of only seven F-35Is so far, with a total of fifty on order. "
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/did-russian-missile-really-hit-israeli-f-35-22926
     
  23. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thanks!
     
  24. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    The Iraqi information minister?
     
  25. Esperance

    Esperance Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you are interested in being totally honest, then you have to admit that Russian pilots can't dogfight with what they can not detect.

    The encounters over Syria sobered up many Russian pilots to the reality that they are flying high tech coffins.

    Unquestioned air superiority belongs to the US because of technological factors that the Russians simply can't match. (Many thanks to Raytheon, Coherent and Northrop Grumman.)
     

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