Study: More Than Half of Trans Male Teens Attempt Suicide

No one said its a conscious choice. Try again.

 

Pretty amusing questions when your own country is criminalizing gender pronoun use if someone is offended. Its your side's obsession with punishing people who look at the science and say you are not what you claim to be and using the government to do it.

And you are not "center left" Cubed. We've talked about this before and you admitted you are a liberal so please stop pretending if you throw in "center" it makes your arguments sound more appealing.

 

Yeah I thought that was weird too.

A Canadian who says they're not trying to enforce it, when they have the Holy Leftist Tribunal of Correct Thinking in Canada.

 

When you start the conversation by telling someone how they feel is wrong and something that requires correcting, then yes, your never going to have the conversation that 'you' want to have. You don't get to decide these things for these people. That's where the issue lies. If you start from a place of acceptance, then you can have the conversation, but until such time, your never ever going to. It's on you to make that decision, not them.

And what political points am I scoring here? Obviously the overwhelming majority of voices here agree with you, so to whom am I signaling and what do I gain by doing so?

And right here is the problem. You start this from a place of 'its bad, and should be cured'. Until you get away from that, your never going to see their PoV.

Define 'normal'.

 

Ok.

Is it fine if we allow people who think their leg shouldn't be there to chop that off?

If not, why not?

Normal is when your brain correctly interprets physical and genetic reality, in this case.

 

"Study: More Than Half of Trans Male Teens Attempt Suicide"

The question should be, why are they failing at such an alarming rate?

 

This debate has always been pointless, there are four questions they have never been able to answer proving that this whole Trans thing is fake:

1. 99% of back stories by a Trans "person" are about liking inanimate objects or imitating behavior artificially labeled for one sex or the other. For example, a common one :"I always liked Dresses and girls clothing. I loved putting Lipstick on as a kid" if neither of those projects were labeled for males or had no label at all would that individual still end up transgender?

2. If Gender is a Social construct, then why are you determining Men that like girl labeled items are trans? Why can't the boy where a dress and still be a boy? It doesn't make sense to say Gender is a social construct then proceed to give them surgery to LOOK like the OTHER sex because they LOOK that way because of BIOLOGY. So the term "gender reassignment surgery" is a contradiction

3. If Transgender people have different brains than how come 99% of the time if the child/teen got brain scans before "diagnosis" are normal and only after drugs/injections/chemicals/etc, do the brains change?

4. Why are 90+% of Transgenders males wanting to be women? Seems odd with the rise of Lesbians and anti-male feminism that the transgender coverage went up a few years ago. Why would men disproportionately at such a high ratio have this "biological" problem?

 

I'm sorry but that makes a little too much sense for this debate. You'll need to wait outside.

 

Is it fine to allow someone to chop something off on their own? No, because they would bleed everywhere and possibly die. If they want to have it safely removed, then that would be between them and there Dr. Why should I get a say one way or the other? It's there body, and doing so changes nothing in my life, so why should I have a say?

I don't think you understand what Trans is. The first two are more about cross-dressing or being Gay. Not about Trans.

Number 3 is wrong outright. The brain scans are different prior to drugs/hormones.

Number 4 is an honestly interesting question that i'm definitely going to have a look into.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4037295/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/

 

We don't need to. That's the point of a dictionary so people don't just make up defintions because they feel like it.


nor·mal
[ˈnôrməl]
ADJECTIVE

1. conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.
   "it's quite normal for puppies to bolt their food" ·
   usual · standard · typical · stock · common · ordinary · customary ·
   [more]
2. technical
   (of a line, ray, or other linear feature) intersecting a given line or surface at right angles.
3. medicine
   (of a salt solution) containing the same salt concentration as the blood.
4. geology
   denoting a fault or faulting in which a relative downward movement occurred in the strata situated on the upper side of the fault plane.

Do you understand people who identify as another sex are not normal people when they make up a fraction of the population? Or better yet, can you admit it?

 

Google it

 

Right, because you thought I meant like in the kitchen with a bear trap.

You're just avoiding it, for obvious reasons.

 

Not at all. I literally said that if they want to do so, then they can discuss it with their Dr. That's between that person and their Dr and not me.

That was the point of what I said. Why should I get a say in a matter that has nothing to do with me?

 

So you would stand behind a movement demanding doctors cut off healthy arms and legs and get defensive about it when people said it wasn't helping them?

Would you support legislation to require people to pretend that their real limbs didn't exist?

Since that's what you're doing now.

 

Dear god, I even tried to spell it out for you as to why I used addiction as an example, literally, I stated why in the exact post. You are either blatantly ignoring that and trying to slide the subject, or .... nevermind.

Addiction is something that if you tell the addict they have a problem, they will laugh at you, get upset with you and do a myriad of other things before they admit there is a problem.

Is it possible that in some instances people who think they are the opposite sex are wrong? Is it possible some of them are lying for attention? Is it possible there is some neurological disorder or mutation that we are not looking into?

The answer to all of those is yes.

Yet here you are, yelling at people who don't have your dogmatic identical opinion instead of searching for answers to help these poor people. But just screaming that society is immoral and we should accept every single person without question is doing nothing but killing more and more people.

And WTF are you talking about "my" help? All I have said OVER AND OVER is that we should have the ability to have a conversation about all this, without virtue signaling troglodytes who start throwing insults as soon as the topic is brought up.

Look at this, this is a perfect example here in this very thread.

 

Considering your using an apples to oranges comparison, i'm not sure how this even fits. Being trans is a helluva lot more then simply cutting off a body part. That you think that is all it is shows how little you understand about Trans folks.

If i come off abruptly its because this is a fight I've had on this board (and IRL) and I've only met a couple of people (not here) who actually wanted to have a valid discussion on the topic. Most of the time it's 'lets have a discussion' that starts with 'these people have a mental disease and we should not validate their existence'. That's not a discussion, that's a high level of BS under the veneer of 'polite discussion'.
If your not one of these types, then I apologize for my attitude.

if you actually want to approach this issue of suicide, and find a cure, then I'd be glad to have one with you, though I'll tell you now, my solutions always start at creating an accepting society for them, and then move from there.


AS to your points, You seem to be under the belief that people aren't studying trans folks, how and why they exist, and how they can cope with the mental issues that come with being Trans. You would be very wrong. These conversations you seem to think aren't happening, are. But they are happening among the people who accept that Trans people exist and should be given the basic level of respect and civility all people should be given.

IS it possible that some trans folks aren't 'all the way' trans and hover over the line? Absolutely. Thats why we have the Kinsey scale for Hetero to homo sexuality. It isn't black or white, yes or no, 1 or 0. It's a varying field where one person isn't the same as another. Does that mean that because some people fake it we should assume the majority are? No.

The vast majority of Trans folks would likely say yes if someone found a switch and said they could flip it one way or the other, because being Trans in this world is at best: a world filled with side-eyed disgust, hatred, and hopefully pockets of happiness, and at worse: actual brutal death.

 

GREAT questions and welcome to the forum!

But first of all, I do think when you use words like "fake" to paint the entire group it is incredibly unhelpful. While I am 100% sure there is a sub group of people who are in fact lying about it, new evidence suggests there may actually BE a biological reason. If so, your questions are becoming more and more relevant and more and more important to have.

I have tried to have real discussions with people on the subject and it is impossibly hard as emotion is always somehow dragged into it.

1) I can't remember where I read it, but a study or article or something stated that 'most' of the determination that they are the opposite sex DOES comes from the person in question and those in their surroundings and the interaction of the two. If a boy over and over and over 'likes' girl things, it becomes a sorta self proclaiming prophecy type thing where eventually they just BELIEVE they are a woman. But I have also seen studies that the brain chemistry itself is working differently.

One recent study found that "sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs separately from sexual differentiation of the brain in utero, making it possible that the body can veer in one direction and the mind in another."

If this is true, future technology or further research may be able to identify and correct the differentiation as it occurs.

2) I don't buy into this ridiculous "gender is a social construct". Gender is the sex you are born with, male or female, about 1.7% are "intersex" and the government allows me to have a higher rate of failure for my products, I think a genetic mutation of 1.7% sounds about right for nature. Social construct to me is the same thing as "how do you identify". If you want to like girls, boys, both, heck if you like deer, I simply don't care. Gender reassignment surgery IMO has horrible results. People after the surgery have been shown to actually have a higher rate of suicide than before, why is that the route being pushed by so many is my question....

3) Do you have the studies on "they have different brains"? From what I have read that is not the case, or at least not to the point where we can identify it. The studies I have seen have shown that the brains of women are the same whether cis or trans and the brains of men are the same whether cis or trans. This is why the most recent thing I saw (posted above) was so interesting as to "mismatching" the genitals and the brain.

I have seen a few studies that showed it could be completely a brain/physical thing, but they to me seemed very flimsy and based on empirical results rather than the other studies which were evidence based. It is a pretty new study though so it should be interesting to keep an eye on, I do personally "subscribe" to the "genital/brain differentiation" theory as it REALLY makes sense if you look at the data.

4) Another GREAT question in a line of questions that have to do with behavioral aspects instead of biological. If it is in fact 100% psychological, I think the idea of gender change is absolutely barbaric and they should just call themselves a feminine man who likes men (or visa versa with women). But if the above theory is correct, it could have to do with the genital region of men failing to "connect" correctly with the brain than do women's genitals.

 

Dude what is your deal, you can't even correctly state the points I am discussing with you let alone come up with an argument relating to the actual topic. You believe I think trans is "... it is all about [cutting off a body part]" is so insanely inaccurate that you should be embarrassed that this is the hill you want to die on. I haven't stated anything NEAR that, we haven't gotten close to that part of the debate because I am "unaccepting" to you.

If you want to know some of my thoughts, feel free to see the post above. I think it may actually BE biological, a slight mutation or something if you will. I think we may be able to ACTUALLY "cure" people based on some of the new data coming out. Hmm, well cure is probably a bad term, but a possible "vaccine" type program/surgery/drug/whatever could be used in the future based on the theory.

If you really do mean that apology I will take it, as I stated you can look at the post above for what I think a "real" conversation looks like. But you calling me "unaccepting" and thinking I hate trans people because I think there is a better way to help them is pretty disgusting and is taken by myself as a direct insult.

Again, I am not under any impression that they aren't being studied, to be honest it sounds like I am more well read on the studies than you are. The main question of the thread was about suicide and whether or not it should be discussed and treated. I stated the first problem is our inability to discuss the real issues, then sure enough, you dived in and made my prediction true.

My goal is to find the "switch" that the vast (willing to bet all) amount of trans people are looking for.

If you read my post above, recent studies into "genital/brain differentiation" during formative years is pretty interesting. It especially is so because it might explain why men are having much "more" issue with it than men are as the male genital region is perhaps the culprit, or you could say "switch"

 

That 'cutting off the body part' was directed at Vman12. Not you. It was a response to his relating being Trans to simply chopping off a body part.

I think the issue with our dialogue is that I felt we have moved passed the original component of 'suicide' and into the acceptance of Trans in general. My apologies for that. It seems I got you caught up with the rest of them. I'll definitely keep this in mind moving forward.

I agree that suicide is absolutely an issue (as evidenced by the OP study) but I think that way to many wrongly believe that its due to the 'being trans' part and less about the 'mental conflicts of living in a society that rejects Trans folks'. It is a touchy subject because that has been the thought process for a long time now, so I can imagine why it would be difficult for some to have a reasonable discussion about it.

I'll definitely look into those studies, as i think our technological improvements can yield much more accurate and interesting information. As to the switch, IF its found, then we get into some interesting conversations about how much power over nature we should posses. How far off would it be to find a switch for 'gay/straight'? Are we going to go as far as gene editing/eugenics? Imagine growing up and finding out your parents altered your genes at birth? People lose their minds over circumcision, and thats just the removal of a bit of skin.

 

Ok.

Two questions:

1. What is being trans.
2. Should we be required by law to agree with them

 

Ah, I retract that statement then, I definitely agree there is far more too it than "chopping off a body part".

I also apologize for overreacting, like you I have had my history with posters and IRL and likely jumped down your throat more quickly than I should have.

Well, finding a "switch" for being gay and straight will likely as you stated, require something like CRISPR and personally that is a route I would rather not go.

But the studies into trans are looking much different IMO, who you think is attractive or desirably sexually is one thing, but completely denying you have a certain anatomy? I personally have never thought that could be 100% psychological.

Took me a bit to find again (not really, more like 2 mins lawl), but here is the article and corresponding study about "genital and brain differentiation" that I think is promising. If this IS in fact the culprit, the "switch" I am talking about could be identifying this differentiation is happening and nipping it in the bud before the genitals and the brain irreparably divide.

https://www.the-scientist.com/features/sex-differences-in-the-brain-34758

It is a pretty rough read if you are not up to speed on genetic sciences, but the "math" is all right there to see IMO. I will copy and paste what I think is the most relevant part from the study on mice. Unfortunately and for good reason we cannot perform these studies on humans, but IMO "similar triangles" is simply too close for this not to be the answer.

"
So to what extent do these brain sex differences identified in rodents also exist in humans? While we can’t experiment on humans for obvious reasons, we can rely on “natural experiments” in which a hormonal profile or sensitivity has been altered due to genetic anomalies. Two well-studied examples are congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), in which the adrenal glands produce excessive androgens during fetal development, and complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS), in which a mutation in the androgen receptor makes it incapable of binding testosterone and other androgens. In both cases, gonadal development occurs according to the chromosomally dictated sex—i.e., XX embryos will develop ovaries and XY embryos, testes—but the secondary sex characteristics often align with the opposite sex. CAH girls are born with masculinized genitalia, for example, due to their in utero androgen exposure, while CAIS boys appear as normal girls when born due to the lack of differentiation of the external male sex organs.

These conditions provide the opportunity to ask whether brain sex matches gonadal sex. In the case of CAIS, the answer is emphatically no, as these XY individuals consistently identify as females. This finding is in line with the notion that early life exposure to androgens is necessary for development of a male identity. For the CAH girls, the shift in hormonal profile is not as dramatic as that for CAIS individuals, and thus the changes in brain and behavior are also less dramatic. Still, there is typically evidence for a degree of “masculinization” of their brains when assessed for behavioral traits such as toy choice. Thus, despite some differences between humans and animal models, the preponderance of evidence supports the notion that humans undergo a hormonally mediated process of sexual differentiation of the brain just like animals."

Pretty darn crazy and HUGE stuff IMO, if it works the same way in humans then we pretty much found out why thre is such a thing as transgender people. It even states that girls with the CAH disorder has a shift that is "not as dramatic.." which would right there explain the reason FAR more men than women are dying.

I have found it impossible to discuss this with all but one single trans person as they immediately attacked me for not saying it was "natural".

 

A.No they are not.

Most trans stories the vast majority of the time, are exactly what I wrote in #1. This is not debatable. many Trans "story" sites and video interviews to look at it's all the same crap.

There is multiple evidence of blogs and advocates shouting about different brains in scans and then later finding out that these individuals had scans sometimes only a few months earlier, and none of those recent scans showed the same thing until after "diagnosis". That doesn't mean after drugs or hormones because there could be other things teens take or their parents give their children after the "diagnosis" since we now have street level Trans-friendly items now. Yeah, they exist, and certain communities put these kids/teens on those to "help" them before they start taking real transitional stuff.

Not only that, the recent studies trans advocates are parading around the last year and a half contradict the brain scans because it goes against the gender construct argument. You can't have a gender construct argument, and then say gender is biological. Doesn't make a lick of sense.

B. Also did you know a person working for construction for years and someone who's been a taxi driver or a racecar driver for years had their brains shape differently over time in different ways than the average office or retail worker? Those "differences" in the brain may not even have anything to do with transgenderism. In fact, every 'study" that explores it has only said "It could be transgenderism because the brain looks different in a scan" they never say why or how, they don't have any in-depth details at what would cause it (other than random guesses written professionally in a document to look like findings) just "look it's different so let's just make up the possibility it means that it's part of trans biology" which again contradicts the gender construct narrative.

C. Also I am sick of people using polling as science, polling is not science. If I go to some area in California and ask people if they have aids, I bet over 50% of respondents will say no. But if we use polling as science and I report there's a low level of aids, despite aggregate medical institutional data suggesting otherwise, people will believe it. Which is dangerous.

I noticed a lot of science by Trans (and LGBT in general) Advocates are polling. This makes it harder to take anything Trans Advocates say seriously because they are using an unreliable metric as conclusive scientific data for something that effects peoples health and well being. Which honestly i am on the line about whether that should be made illegal or not.

D. People are constantly lying about the death rates pre and post-surgery or hormones. The Suicide rate doesn't change at all (in some areas it increases), and we know this through sicence, records and autopsies. The lie spread about hormones/chemicals or surgery helping reducing "Dyphoria" is all based on polling. A person who was already dumb enough to inject themselves with nonsense or cut their penis off is not going to say "I don't enjoy being a trans" or "I don't think the surgery will work" they will lie at that question by default 98% of the time. We have enough data through REAL science, from both sides, that does not suggest but TELLS us it's not true.

E. By creating a fake consensus, you brush aside credible people who are experts in the field of study related to this topic, even if they are a 40 year-old democrat who supported gay marriage, they will be brushed aside for questioning whether someones math is wrong, or whether certain accepted beliefs come from reliable sources in regards to LGBT studies. This is extremely dangerous and creates a bubble/hivemind.

i know why the higher-ups do it though, on one hand it can prove transgenderism to be 100% true, on the other hand they risk it being demolished completely. From the elite politicians making money off men/women wanting to cut off their penis /destroy their vagina because they are "progressive" and the millions of people that believe their scheme and support it whether they would do it or not, if Transgenderism was definitely debunked, which honestly it already mostly is, do you know how much money profiters would lose?

F. Also I forgot one more question to the 4 I asked earlier. An Important one and this applies to the whole LGBT movement not just Transgenders.

5. Why are none of the advocates concerned that both Homosexual and Transgender self-identifications and child "diagnosis" have had MORE than ten-fold increases over the last two years? The amount of new Transgender or Homosexual Men/Women/Children is ridiculously high, and in some cases even advocate sites aren't downplaying it, they are just ignoring it which is weird because I thought they said they would never want people to go through things like depression or "dyphoria eh?

This is where your high suicide rate for the LGBT is coming from.

Advocates say that it's "Bullies" and yadayada, yet there are groups throughout the last just 50 years in worse conditions with lower suicide rates. At the worst peaks during japanese invasion, the suicide rate in China that was considered "Epidemic" was less than 25% ad that was for two or three weeks.

LGBT on average matches the trans rate of over 40%! That's nearly 1 out of every 2 LGBT identifying individuals. Something is wrong, and has been for years now. Soon we are going to have a puerto rican number change moment with LGBT suicides, and everyone will see the actual number of suicides that happened the last several years and realize this LGBT movement has killed A LOT more people than many realize. All just because Advocates and Corporations didn't want to lose money and sponsorships, and that feeling of control.

 

2. As i said above, it's reassignment surgery is dangerous. However a friend of mine knows a guy who's sister is a very progressive person, that word of course has no meaning now since it's applied to whoever at whatever time of day. and she and her medical institution make bank on the surgeries, especially since in her area the tax payers also sometimes pay for the surgery. But that's only one part, the other is that they need the surgeries to be publicized to seem like it reduces suicide so that they can continue to be supported by the base, and it makes it easier to go after kids.

3. A trans-women does not have a female brain or signs of a female brain before "diagnosis" and are often given things before "diagnosis" even when that period is before they are correctly "diagnosed" as trans. There is no study showing how that possible, most of them are well written documents that extend wording on spotting difference in the brain and "chemistry" in a scan but not where it comes from, if there's any consistency in the change, or whether the change may be caused by something else. There's also heavy inconsistency, and I mean HEAVY inconsistency in "methods" used to determine if brain "changes" are related to the part of the brain that deals with "sex/gender", and with no consistency how can you come to that conclusion?

4. The second theory doesn't make sense for many reasons but only one is needed: If Men are more commonly Trans because of their "genitals having bigger disconnect" than a women with their "female brain" than vice versa, and thus, is the reason why Men wanting to be women go into dysphoria disproportionally compared to women wanting to be men, then why do 90+% of Trans women NOT remove their Penis even when It's SAFE to do so with minimal complications?

 

ABSOLUTELY THIS THIS AND MORE THIS.

Instead of changing the discussion as the science changes, the ideas of "social construct" are absolutely ridiculous as they continue to grow. It is nothing more than people politicizing this crap so they can take advantage of the horrible situations these people are going through.

If we use actual science to figure out what is going on, their entire PC idea of "social construct" is absolutely obliterated. This CANNOT BE for the powers that be in Progressive wing politicians.

For this reason, you can expect them to drag their feet and disavow any science they don't agree with.

The most recent studies I pointed out earlier show that it definitely appears to be biological, this is going to literally destroy everything that is taught in modern "gender studies".... a VERY good thing IMO.

But while Progressives use these poor people for their political aims, actually solving their problems will be impossible.

 

Not marginalizing and humiliating them virtually all the time?