Can you be liberal and Christian at the same time?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Spooky, May 23, 2018.

  1. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely nothing at all.
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    And, that means the contribution of states with relatively low income would bear more of the tax weight.

    Someone there would benefit by getting out of such a state and moving to a higher income state.
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, you're also raising competition between the states. Maybe that's what you want.

    As for "dirty rotten right wingers" on health care, that's not the issue at all.

    The issue is that every other industrialized nation pays less than we do for health care because they use various versions of single payer systems.

    Demanding that we pay more for health care (without even bothering to address all Americans) is more stupid than dirty rotten.
     
  4. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    It would mean that for tax purposes the Federal government would treat all citizens of all States equally, while the State and local governments would have freedom to tax their individual citizens and businesses differently with intent to achieve the same or similar goals.

    Yes, someone might benefit by moving, from/to, a State with higher/lower incomes. That would be one of my intents.
     
  5. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Competition is bad?

    Then let's not allow Left vs Right to detract from attempting to resolve problems.

    Some people might benefit more by moving to one of the 'other' industrialized nations.

    I've not demanded we pay anything for health care. I've only suggested fixing our tax system. Health care is another issue, which I would leave to the States to resolve in ways their citizens find acceptable, AND are willing to pay the costs of providing.
     
  6. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    A socialist? You mean because of his heart for the poor?

    Well what do you think Mark 10:25 is saying?
     
  7. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Probably the least ambiguous passage in the gospels and you need me to explain it? Biblical apologists of the kind who worship wealth as evidence of God’s grace & approval have however attempted to twist it’s meaning. Giving the expression “it is easier for a camel” as an anchor-rope (Kemilon) and not camel (kemelon). Still others have suggested it refers to the side gate for travellers by foot, close by the principal gate, called then by some ethnic groups as ‘in the East’ (eye of a needle) but most biblical scholars understand the words literally as similar proverbs are given in the Talmud. You however, with the Grace of the Almighty to assist you, are free to interpret it however you wish.
    As to Jesus being a socialist or not there are countless Biblical stories that match the so called evil "socialist" economic ethic, such as the story of Zacchaeus the Tax Collector, which, so illuminating, is found in Luke 19:1-10: Zacchaeus gives half of his wealth and pays back four times what he has defrauded. He has put his own wealth and honor in jeopardy in order to benefit his neighbors and his community. Additionally, Luke 16 contains the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man eats wonderful food and dresses in the finest clothes. Lazarus sits outside of his gates and waits for the scraps from his table. Both men die. The rich man lands in torment and Lazarus at Abraham's side. The rich man's sin, was ignoring the suffering of the poor. He thought of his wealth as his own and the poverty and suffering of others as having no connection to him. This view of the world lands him in torment. How can anyone read these things and then claim Jesus would back a system that propagates a personal/private view of wealth? Both characters in these stories are punished because they only thought of themselves and their wealth!

    "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the Kingdom of God" - Luke 6:20-26

    "Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that will come upon you. Your wealth will rot, and moths will eat your clothes. For your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You who have hoarded wealth in the last days!" - James 5:1-3

    "How terrible for you who are rich now, for you have had your easy life and will get no more..." - Luke 6:24

    "But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just." - Luke 14:13-14

    If someone takes away your coat, let him have your shirt as well...(Forgotten which Gospel this appears in.)

    "In the temple courts [Jesus] found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and other sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables." - John 2:14-15. This story which shows Jesus' rage against what is essentially corporate Greed, merging money with state & theological power, is also repeated in Matthew 21:12 (summed here essentially): Jesus walks into the temple courtyard and sees how merchants there change money, they have built their business up around what is supposed to be God's temple. Jesus is horrified by the idea that God's home could be profaned with money and the desire to be wealthy, he loses it, making a whip and begins turning over the tables the merchants are trading upon, he drives out the cattle being sold and screams a ton of insults at the people in the courtyard. Jesus was filled with righteous indignation at the idea of Church being involved with business, he was horrified that it could be used as a network for making money.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  8. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    No I don't need you to explain it, I didn't ASK you to "explain" it. I asked what YOU think it is saying. And you have not done so.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  9. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you don’t already know what I think Mark 10:25 is saying you either can’t read or are - - - In the end though you’re not going to care what I suggest the passage tells us, you’re going to stick to your ‘God given’ interpretation no matter what I or anyone else might say. How wondrous it must be to be so blest.
    Jesus also inferred that wealth can be a potential spiritual stumbling block when he travelled about Israel calling his disciples. They voluntarily left their material goods in order to follow him Matthew. 19:27; Mark 1:18; 10:2. This appears to be a prerequisite, of sorts, for all of Jesus’ followers, for when instructing a great crowd outside of Jerusalem, Christ taught,
    Any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33

    However, for me all this is academic as I’m unsure the Jesus of the Gospels actually existed and if he did was he at all like we have been told.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  10. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    "Or are" what? Here is what you said:

    So you have said what "Biblical apologists" say and what "others" say. Are you one of those or something?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  11. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Why are you linking wealth and greed? Have you ever heard of wealthy philanthropists?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  12. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why are you putting words in my mouth?
     
  13. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Palestine's applications for what? Full membership?
     
  14. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Here is the quote from the judge again: "A wedding cake is not just a cake in free speech analysis. It is an artistic expression by the person making it that is to be used traditionally as a centerpiece in the celebration of a marriage. There could not be a greater form of expressive conduct."

    Note how he says that it isn't JUST about speech, but also "artistic expression!"
     
  15. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    I'm not. Do you think that Jesus was challenging rich people who gave to the poor?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  16. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Cheaper for everyone?

    How can you call it the "American" response? Again, Surely you aren't letting the few tar the majority. Unless you think that it is the majority who denied the evidence and protected him. By the way, how is Kavanaugh a criminal?

    And that is terrible. What's your point?

    Which was let them go right? Yeah, that was a GREAT policy! :roflol:
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  17. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can’t recall a passage that tells us that. If there is one let me know.
    Anyhow, why would such a thought enter my head without having encountered the idea in the gospels? I can’t figure out the way you think.
     
  18. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    You quoted a bunch of passages in which Jesus challenged rich people, right?
     
  19. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, but does that necessarily mean I thought Jesus was challenging rich people who gave to the poor. I don’t mean to be rude but I’m finding this interchange no longer makes sense. In fact from my perspective it ceased to make sense some time ago.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  20. nopartisanbull

    nopartisanbull Well-Known Member

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    Hello brothers and sisters, I'm an independent Christian conservative/fiscal conservative, and liberal on many issues, such as;

    1. Health care.....I strongly support "Essential Care For All" for the following reasons;

    a. According to my CFO cost based analysis, my employer would end up saving near $26 million annually, and "most" employees/tax payers would also save money.

    "most".....if financed through payroll/FICA, I'll end up paying near $750 more, and I'm ok with that.

    b. Everyone would be adequately insured.

    Raised Pentecostal, my Church has been sheltering the homeless since 1979, and I am also a board member of a regional food bank. In addition, a few elders and I have anonymously helped struggling church members, mostly single mothers.

    So, yes, one can be partly liberal, and Christian at the same time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  21. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    His (Christ) point was to not put money first in your life "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also", because it can easily lead a person away from God. Being rich in itself is not a problem, and many of Godly men in the Bible were very rich and at the same time they were His servants. Abraham and David are good examples. Materialism is the biggest stumbling block in the Western world and it is especially true in the United States where taxation is often referred to as 'theft' even if those taxes were to be used to help the poor, the sick, and the weak. I am NOT saying Jesus was a socialist, because He was not a political figure, but His instructions were clear in Matthew 25 when he spoke about the Sheep and the Goat and summarized:

    "‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me"
    - For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat,
    - I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink,
    - I was a stranger and you invited me in
    - I needed clothes and you clothed me,
    - I was sick and you looked after me
    - I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    The poor, the sick etc can be helped by personal donations, but the reality has shown such donations do not come anywhere near close to being enough. People are too much in love with their money to give it away in large enough amounts. The other way is to finance it through taxation. No one likes money being withdrawn from our paychecks, but it is easier when you remind yourself that some of it will end up helping those in need. This is why Evangelicals supported Democrats until Roe vs Wade changed everything. Now they support the GOP even thought they are openly opposed to using tax money to help the poor. They have their arguments, and I agree with them to a point, but those arguments were not good enough until R/W.
     
  22. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Why did you quote them? What point were you trying to make with them?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  23. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    People should be careful not to conflate charity with taxation.
     
    JET3534 and usfan like this.
  24. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Why should you and others pay more?
     
  25. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, but it seems like a play of words. Taxes are not evil or theft if they are used to provide services as described in Matt 25. I already mentioned the services can be funded by charity OR taxes, and added that reality has proven charity does not come anywhere near to covering the cost. Jesus taught what we can do as individuals, but was not opposed to the idea of getting it done through the society as whole, which brings me back the point about evangelicals supporting Dems in before abortion became the main issue.

    IMO those Christians who believe Matt 25 is best achieved with the help of government should not be ashamed to say so, and same goes with those who disagree with it.

    The "brothers and sisters" in Matt 25:40 can be understood to mean members of the church aka 'God's people' and not the whole world, but the rest of His teachings clearly demonstrate we need to be kind to everyone, so it is just a matter of finding the most effective way of doing it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018

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