Orban in Hungary makes street homeless people to be criminals!

That's nice.

Why not start with free shelter and bank the win.

Maybe you can get them jobs next too.
Maybe they can build farms and schools afterwards. If you still have the money to give to them of course.

 

The government and state should find a solution to it fast, any government that cannot afford to take care of its own citizens is an inefficient one.

 

Sure, along with compensation for their laboring beyond the monthly cost of living.

I can't stress enough how important worker apprenticeships are and an access to education is also.

 

So you want to compensate them for their labour with a house plus more money?

You understand exactly how much a free house is worth in money right?
Free land and free materials plus food and labour to get the job done? You understand the monetary value of this?

And you also understand that you are asking other people who do not get free food, labour and houses to pay for it?
To give up their own compensation to compensate others for nothing in return.


No mate.
A free house is enough reason to go to work. Enough compensation for someone who commits only his own labour to an endeavour only he profits from.


Frankly I doubt anyone will volunteer to give them even the materials to build their own homes, let alone every mod con you can imagine they might prosper from.

 

That is the difference between me and libertarians, I believe in the national public welfare of a nation which means everybody that can afford to give something back to society improving the lives of everybody should do so.

You see individual responsibility whereas I see it as a joint collective effort for society as a whole.

In this retrospect I believe a strong centralized government should take an active role in doing such public projects by intervening.

 

And I believe that I got mine through hard work. Sweat, pain and blood that I have many times risked my life to earn and to keep it and that it has been the sum of many peoples lives combined to acquire and will go on to be owned by others when I have passed.

I will ****ing kill anyone who tries to take it from me or they.
I have a responsibility to a collective that you are not a member of.
I am from a society that I have given back more to than I have taken. I feel no shame in keeping what is mine. Until it is time for me to pass it on to others of my choosing and not yours.

And the amount I am willing to improve your lives is not advantaged by the destroying of my own. I will not become ****ed up, just because you are.
There is no solidarity here.

I already have a collective. You aren't invited to join and it is well defended.
Consider the welfare of your own when you target mine.


What you see is not individual greed mate.
What you see is something you think you can take from others.
Nuh uh. Never going to happen.


If you as an individual wish to donate your resources to the homeless. More power to you. That is for you as an individual to decide.
If you wish me to? That is for you as an individual to make wishes about.

 

I'm very acquainted with libertarian thinking which is one of the reasons why I am not a libertarian. My biggest problem with libertarians is that your entire political ideal framework for society turns all into just one giant zero sum game. Any society, house, or nation that is so drastically divided and polarized will inevitably fall into collapse.

So I think it is that fascist in me as you already know of that if the state has to force everybody to cooperate, work together, and see each other as brothers or sisters of a greater community so be it. I am unapologetic for this belief of mine.

As for public welfare of the greater collective whole of society I believe everybody should pay a minimal tax for such infrastructure in place to go towards social services like helping the homeless. Reading all of that no doubt you probably think of me as a tyrant with wicked intentions but it is what it is nonetheless.

 

Getting those people into agriculture and farming would be the best option.But no one wants to live in villages any longer.I am certain that there are villages all over Hungary that desperately need people to help them with agriculture and farming.

 

That is where financial incentivization comes into play.

 

Did I say 'Roumania' earlier?

 

??

 

I said Romania. I did mention them in my very own post that nobody acknowledged but you had to, since there are points that you all missed.

 

Yes, I am aware that this was a possible problem envisaged with allowing people with no experience of democracy in, so they had to sign they would agree by the above and I totally agree with you that having not adhered to what they signed an agreement to they ought to accept consequences.

Well my memory is a bit hazy, I remember him stopping them from moving, holding them up in stations and not letting them get on trains and then when he did want to register them, refugees became concerned about what he was up to and he built the wall to keep them out.

The UK has not taken a fair share of refugees though it does seem to have looked after the very few it took in well - at least we do in Scotland. This whole area - creating wars, destroying states and a humane response to the millions of refugees created by this is something which needs to be looked into again - the whole thing from the beginning. Laws we have date back to after WW2 when we are arguably in WW3 although we in the West feel none of the agony apart from the occasional terror attack.

except I think they would not have a problem with what he is up to. There have been several threads where he seems to be supported regardless.

England still has vagrancy laws which make it illegal to be a vagrant though I don't think they are adhered to 99% of the time. I did a look up and what do you know they brought them in after the Napoleonic wars left many soldiers without a home coupled with economic migrants from Scotland and Ireland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagrancy_Act_1824

Regarding Hungary. I can see from here that he has already had a go at this which in 2012 was ruled unconstitutional by Hungary's Constitutional court.

The Government paid no attention to this and one year later went on to the next amendment continuing to the final amendment in June of this year making homelessness or staying in a public space generally illegal. Clearly Orban is ignoring his own Constitutional Court. The paper points out that this law would leave the homeless people with no place to eat and sleep, hence having adverse physical and psychological effects amounting to cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment. They point out how Hungarian and International Law demands that States act towards eliminating homelessness while giving the homeless the same rights and liberties as everyone else.

In particular due to what you said about your concern about the Nazis having used this policy, it is interesting seeing who they perceive the homeless to consist of. They point out that the homeless include people living in poverty, the disabled, LGBT community, the Roma and Migrants, so yes, well spotted.

 

I don't give a monkies about libertarian thinking.
I don't give a monkies about politics.

Stuff that is inside your head, stuff that is inside my head... not worried about it.

I choose who I unite with, how and when.
You may try and choose for me, but I will resist your choices if you presume to make them for me.
Automatically, right or wrong. When you presume to take my choices for me, I will resist you.

I couldn't give a **** about your intentions towards others when your intentions towards me are bad.


Now, this society has been here for thousands of years, this house has been here for a thousand years.
You can predict it's collapse all you like. You won't be the first to do so.

I don't need your help with anything thanks. Jog on.

 

Their farmland all looks pretty well maintained to me.

Maybe they need help at harvest time.

Frankly as they get more investment their farms are going to need less people not more. And greatly increase their yields too.
Not sure where the job expansion will be in their economy, (or even mine).

Low wage/low cost industry? German outsourcing?

 

In my post 61, on the page before this.

 

I took it you meant Hungarians.

 

Homeless people are incompetent.

The fact that they are homeless is prima facie evidence of their incompetence.

They are so incompetent, they can't even manage their day-to-day affairs to maintain a job that would allow them to maintain their own housing.

Why?

The majority of the homeless are mentally ill. Thanks to people just like you, we are not allowed to force them to take medication so that they can function and be competent and maintain a job that would provide them with housing.

And, thanks to people, just like you, we are not allowed to confine the mentally ill, regardless of how formal (an institution) or informal (a group home where they can come and go as they please) the setting is.

So, thanks to people just like you, our hands are tied behind our backs, yet you constantly demand we do something to help them.

State expressly, in no uncertain terms, what we who have our hands tied behind our backs thanks to people just like you should do.

Some homeless are veterans. So?

The VA maintains domiciliaries in each State. Many States have 2, or 3 or even 4 domiciliaries. At a VA domiciliary, a veteran gets a warm bed and three meals per day, medical care, psychological counseling 2-3 times per week, drug and alcohol counseling on a daily basis, they work under the CWT program where they are declared 100% disabled and receive money each month which is managed by a payee so the veteran does not throw the money away on instant self-gratification, and when they have competed 6 to 12 months, a VA social worker will drive them around to apply for jobs and attend job interviews, and once they have a job, a VA social worker will drive them around to find an apartment, and they will pay a reduced rent for the apartment under the HUD-VASH program.

What the hell else to do you freaking want?

Do you want someone to hold their hand and walk them through every freaking second of their pathetic lives telling them what to do and what not to do? You do that. And you do that for free, because I'm not paying for it.

The rest of the homeless are drug and alcohol abusers. Thanks to people just like you, there's very little we can do for them, either. In most States, you have to be arrested for a drug or alcohol related crime in order for a judge to order them into a substance abuse program.

This is yet another instance where people just like you have tied our hands behind our backs, yet expect us to do something.

Drug and alcohol programs are not as successful as people would have us believe. That 80% "success rate?" Read the fine print. That's 30 days after leaving the program. What's the success rate after 6 months, or a year? It's less than 10%.

Those people are broken; they're defective, and you're not going to fix them. You can only fix them temporarily, because there's always some crisis in life that triggers a relapse, and it's typically family that triggers it, and more often than not, a significant other.

And, before you scream "opioid crisis" on a crowded Internet forum, you did that.

People just like you responded to the hospital surveys in the early 1990s. The hospitals couldn't help but notice the very obvious correlation between satisfaction and pain level. Patients who endured little pain rated the hospital highly. Patients that endured lots of pain rated the hospital poorly.

That is what compelled hospitals to engage in a quest to better manage pain, but without the pharmaceuticals, there wasn't much hospitals could do. The pharmaceutical companies simply answered your pleas for better pain management, because you are incredibly weak, much weaker than your ancestors, and can't handle a little bit of pain.

The best thing you could for the homeless is round them up and stick them on a reservation, just like you put Indians on a reservation. Give them some cows and goats, and some chickens and ducks, and a couple of horses for the ploughs and let them feed themselves.

If they can't do that, that's just too damn bad, and Society is much better off without them.

 

Of course Mandelus is speaking about the situation in Hungary not the US. However given he pointed out his concern that the actions mirrored those of the Nazis, he obviously is concerned that they mirror your conclusion.

 

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime????

 

We are not tallking about giving anyone fish. We are talking about going against the Constitution of Hungary, International law and terminating the homeless.

 

I was qualifying Mircea's thoughts about dependency? Another way would be to 'give a hand up not a hand-out'.

 

Saying what happens in the US which on its own I would imagine is debatable, but pretending what happens in the US is what is happening in Hungary is being dishonest. Mircea's last line fitted in more with the concern Mandelus was airing.

 

It's always funny until it happens to you, in the past I've stated somewhat a kind of poetic justice when the United States economically collapses in the future.

I can imagine thousands of upper middle class and wealthy people losing everything in a blink of an eye forced onto the streets with nothing but the shirts on their backs.

They're as they huddle in the darkness out in the cold under the elements shouting,"Why God, why me?!", where nobody can hear their agonizing screams in the darkness of night within an endless ocean of despair they'll all have plenty of time to think about all those they ridiculed, insulted, or mocked in their former past lives.

It is at that moment of sweet irony or poetic justice an unseemly onlooker will come upon them and ask, "Why are you homeless?", "What are you some kind of mentally ill degenerate drug addict too lazy to look for work?" Where afterwards they come to the full realization that you justly receive what you give unto others.

 

It's an efficient way to roundup those who wish to migrate to the EU through their fences and borders,now they will put in prison those who wish to live further.