Faith vs Science?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by usfan, Sep 16, 2018.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Let's remember that we had colonies wherein all collected taxes went to the head of the dominant religious sect which ruled the colony.

    Claiming that religious pluralism and separation from government was a contribution of Christianity is somewhat of a serious stretch. Our colonies were born of Christian persecution. It's great that they worked out how to get along without doing that all over again.

    And, it would be even better if religious pluralism included greater acceptance for other religious opinion.
     
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  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I firmly do believe that that day is coming.........
    and even greater than merely all that......

    https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/mellen-thomas-benedict.html#a09
    and speaking of ENERGY......

    Is this the answer to atmospheric carbon?

     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Today, Christianity makes some strong statements about how we should live our lives, what we should value, how to view our relationships with others, etc.

    Studies of our population show that a significant majority see themselves as Christians.

    However, those characteristics can not be claimed to be showing up in our nation today, especially wrt government.

    We can't afford to have a population that grips what is claimed to be the keys of morality and ethics, yet fails to insist on a direction demonstrating those values.


    That is something that needs to change today, not later.
     
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  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I guess what I'm saying is that I've never seen a religion where it was good enough to claim, "I waited for the end times."

    I don't see that in the Bible.

    The call of the New Testament isn't to wait for the end times.

    The call of the Qur'an isn't to wait for the end times.

    The call of Judaism isn't to wait for the end times.

    Not even the call of atheism involves passively waiting for the end.
     
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  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree...... I believe that a Utopian future depends on our choices....... in at least some ways.......
    Yes.. by the year 2185 G-d can get us humans to love each other by decreasing human freedom and increasing the control of the Holy Spirit........

    https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html#a04
    But..... I believe that that type of future does not have to be delayed until around the year 2185..... but can happen faster if we will make wiser choices........

    https://www.near-death.com/science/research/future.html#a03
    I believe that this idea of our being free to choose to improve our future rapidly.... fits nicely with the most likely Philosophical Implications of Multiverse Theory.

    The Philosophical implications of Multiverse Theory?

     
  6. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    To be sure, my abiity to do so with idiots is severely limited. To my way of thinking it's a feature, not a bug.
    And quite properly so, as intellect is merely a capacity; and whereas talent does merely what it can, genius does what it must.
    Well shaZAYam, whoda deen that one coming? :yawn:
     
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't see any possibility of a link between "multiverse theory" and having people actually practice their religion as if they believe in it like they claim they do.

    As for the "holy spirit", let's remember that the standard model for that is that the holy spirit works through people on earth.

    And, if the people on earth are uninterested in putting their religion into practice, the holy spirit no longer has a means of operation.


    If Christianity were real, we would see it making a difference. Nations (like America) which are majority Christian would see Christianity put into daily practice.

    We would NOT have a government such as exists today, where Christians put into office those who have no interest in the values specifically stated in the New Testament.

    In the US, more than 70% claim to be Christian. 3.5% claim to be atheist. (According to PewResearch)

    Yet, some blame ATHEISM!!!

    Sorry. That's just plain silly. We are where we are today BECAUSE of the votes of Christians. THEY chose Trump. THEY chose congress. THEY are choosing to hate those from other countries, those who immigrate, those of different skin color, those of different religions. THEY allowed Trump to steal the children of immigrants with no plan or effort to EVER return them to their parents. THEY choose to be worried about the possible harm to men while not caring about women who are sexually assaulted.

    There is NO possibility that the 3.5% that are atheists could possibly have "accomplished" that.

    And, that is not going to change without Christians deciding change is required.
     
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  8. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The trinitarian notion of The Father, Son & The Holy Spirit weren’t formatted until originally adopted in the city of Nicaea by the First Council of Nicaea in 325.[1] In 381, it was amended at the First Council of Constantinople, and the amended form is referred to as the Nicene or the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.
    Where was it prior to this? Working invisibly?
     
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  9. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    So you are claiming you are less than an idiot?
     
  10. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    Well I have dared it to strike me dead many times and am still here? Of course god could have tried again and just missed and hit Mexico city.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  11. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    As a reminder, this is an examination of epistemology, not an 'Atheists vs Christians!' flame war. I have defined both terms, in their usage, to contrast with the stereotypical 'faith vs science!' narratives, that dominate the forums and most of the public discourse.

    IMO, the enmity promoted is a false caricature, to smear Christianity as 'religious!', while Atheism is 'science!' Our individual knowledge base does not have that false dichotomy, but is a blend of the abstract/observed, theoretical/empirical, faith/science, or other terms where these epistemological factors find expression.

    So the stereotypical 'Atheists vs Christians!' flame war is actually refuted by this thread, it is not an illustration. It is a phony caricature of reality, promoted by irrational religious bigots.
     
  12. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    You are dealing with people, and you cannot totally control people, and that's what makes sociology, psychology, economics, etc. so difficult.

    In a "does prayer work" type experiment, you use a lot of people, select them appropriately, and you arrange the conditions so it is not overly burdensome to the participants. Its very similar to setting up a medical test which includes a lifestyle component (dietary requirements, exercise requirements, sleep requirements, etc.).
     
  13. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Without the full co-operation of God (which also includes God explaining why He does what he does), the reach of Gods power cannot be tested. Its pointless to suggest people run experiments to determine the limits of God.


    First, the Bible does not state "God works in mysterious ways". That phrase is not in the Old or New Testaments. There are some passages that state God's power is so great that Gods limits are unknown and Gods motivation is sometimes beyond humans ability to comprehend.

    The implication of that misquote is that God is unreachable, cannot be comprehended, and the relationship with God is confusing. That very far from the truth. The Bible defines the relationship between man and God, it is often very clear - if you do X, then the result is Y.

    Not all prayers are answered. The Bible does not state that all a person has to do is say "God give me ....." or "God do .....". There are conditions. The person has to have the proper relationship with God. The strength of a persons faith is a factor. Satan is a factor. The motivation of the person praying is a factor. All those are listed in the Bible.

    God does not always answer prayers immediately. The prayer has to be compatible with the larger plan of God. Thats also discussed in the Bible.

    For example, if someone pays for world peace, its not going to happen because that will only occur when Satan is removed from the earth. Or if someone prays to win the lottery so they can live in luxury, I don't see that happening because the motivation is wrong.

    Obviously there are a lot of people who believe prayers are answered. If no prayers were answered, I doubt there would be any Christians.
     
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  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Maybe He just kicked it off with a great big bang and let it go from there, without spending his time tweaking the outcome of natural events.
     
  15. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Why are there so many expressions of religious bigotry in a thread about epistemology?
    :roll:
     
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That's my main point.
    My quote actually comes from a song written a few hundred years ago.

    I used it rather than describe the full concept as I thought it was totally obvious. Besides, the Christian pastors/wives in my extended family would quote that line pretty much whenever something seemed to go wrong.

    My understanding is that line in the song comes from the various references to the story of Job in the Old and New Testament, and perhaps from other descriptions as well. These authors state that Job had an intercessor (identified in the NT as Jesus) who argued Job's case with God.

    While man can perhaps presume some of the grounds leading to a decision on the prayer request (was Job vain/self serving in his requests, might not the decision be delayed, etc.) there is no way for mankind to know the full basis for such a trial.

    One can always imagine reasons for prayer to not get answered. Maybe the supplicant was too focused on the personal gain of a family member not dying. Maybe there was a greater good of some sort.

    There IS a mystery there. If there is a God, it is crystal clear that mankind would not be able to calculate His next move.
     
  17. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    You are confusing truth for religious bigotry.
     
  18. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have a challenge for you......
    it is something that I did myself back in 1990.......

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/isa/45/1/s_724001

    Isaiah 45:1
    My old church.... the Worldwide Church of God... made rather famous (or infamous as the case may be) by Evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong.... taught me that I was one of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best..........
    So back in 1990 as I was going through something of a Philosophical / Theological crisis I got jealous over the Cyrus guy......... and I complained to YHWH about his leading that Gentile guy by the right hand......
    and here I was...... one of the best of the best of the best of the best.........
    and I felt relatively little guidance......... certainly not by the right hand.... level guidance.

    So I literally stuck my right hand up in the air...... and I challenged YHWH and/ or the Ancient of Days the Father..... and or the Word / Logos of the Elohim......
    to take ME by the right hand and guide me.........

    I asked this with extreme chutzpah..... and sure enough........ for the last 28 years I have been shown error after error after error after error...... in my thinking.......
    beginning with much of the stuff that I was pretty sure that my group and I had right........

    So ..... I personally am certain that if you will pray with chutzpah and maybe even some anger / jealousy........ you Sir will be answered.............

    but be prepared to admit to some errors....... because I had to.......
    the foundation that had been laid for me for the seriously flawed reasoning that I displayed here........ was terribly flawed theology.

    Could the Christian gospel be much worse news?


     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  19. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    You confuse opinions for truth. That is the central message of this thread, distinguishing between believed facts, and verified empiricism.

    But i have found that debating with true Believers about the validity of their beliefs is an exercise in futility. You can believe whatever you want, and it does not bother me at all. These dogmatists are not philosophical or circumspective. Dogmatism dominates their perspective, which exudes bigotry and intolerance for other's beliefs. Of course they are justified, in their minds, but that only shows the depths of their intolerance.
    It is most tragic that our educational system indoctrinates this bigotry and intolerance, directed mostly at Christianity.

    Even if you believe you have only Absolute Truth in every part of your knowledge base, derision and mocking towards other's beliefs is still rude, bigoted, crass, and crude. It is unbecoming an intelligent, educated person.

    Tolerance and freedom of conscience were values America once esteemed. Too bad progressive bigotry has become the new Standard..
     
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  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    There isn't anything in public education in the US today that "directs" any kind of opposition toward religion.

    Also, scientific method doesn't have "absolute truth". It's just not a concept in science. That can not be said of religion, as religion absolutely DOES have absolute truth.


    There may be people who don't understand that, but all that can be done there is to continue to point out that science is not targeting religion and that science states that every idea attributable to science is available for opposition that uses scientific method.

    NO religion is more open than that.
     
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  21. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Thanks for sharing the personal experiences, Dennis. I think some of your ideas are 'out there!', sometimes, but i appreciate the heartfelt sharing in your quest for meaning and spiritual reality.

    We really are, like the blind men and the elephant, and i am grateful for your perspective.
    :applause:
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  22. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Strangely enough..... after all these years...... what I seemed to have learned.......
    is that I, Dennis Tate....... KNOW essentially nothing...... about anything that G-d has planned...... or will do in the near future?!

    Back in 1988..... I thought that I had G-d and the plans of G-d pretty well figured out........
    but now I know that all that I have is some minimal awareness of various theories and schools of thought...... but I actually KNOW....... zero..... zip.... nada ... zilch..... nothing!

    Isaiah 45:4

    "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."

    So..... after all these years.... I have learned to pray with even more chutzpah than I used to...... becuase all I know is that G-d is completely unpredictable........
    and who knows what kind of a political or religious or business leader G-d might decide to raise up for the sake of H-s eight billion infinitely precious humans...... on this earth in this time period...... in this one example of applied Multiverse Theory?????!


    G-d.... in my opinion..... has an off the scale phenomenal sense of humor!


    https://www.facebook.com/adam.knapp.944/posts/10104649225926328

    Adam Knapp:

    October 5 at 7:08 AM ·
    TRUMP, DELILAH, & A JAWBONE

    ...... Oh... now that I mention it...... I did also pray to be given a sense of humor..... because back in 1988........... I looked at the world and my place in it with far, far, far too much seriousness........ paranoia...... fear....... and general lack of humor!
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  23. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But up here in Canada there sure is.........
    and once the dust settles and the smoke clears away our P. M. Justin Trudeau may deserve more credit than we would tend to think...... for giving President Trump a majority in the 2018 mid terms????????

    I could be wrong...... I often am...... but P. M. Trudeau is indeed dangerous to the USA Democratic Party's 2018 hopes?!


    Could P. M. Justin Trudeau manage to destroy the USA Democratic Party for 2018?
    Somebody here in the forum felt that this must be fake news..... they looked it up.... and nope...... this is all too real!

    CBD.ca:
    Trudeau is asking religious Canadians to betray their conscience for federal funding
    The Liberals have applied an ideological purity test to their applications for summer job grants
     
  24. Mamasaid

    Mamasaid Banned

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    No it isn't. The definition of faith itself renders any such discussion moot. That is like discussing whether or not you need water to get something wet. Yes, as the presence of water is what makes something wet.

    Just as the complete absence of any evidence renders faith to be baseless belief and opinion, by definition.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm not so sure about this one.

    I'd say it's likely that a protestant Christian would be tolerated.

    The civil rights movement has made progress, but it's certainly not there yet.
    I don't believe Canada has that kind of influence on America.

    They "ideological purity test" here in America is to verify that the candidate is a Christian. If the claim to Christianity isn't clear, it's a huge issue.
     

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