Why Beauty Is Not Shallow

Discussion in 'Women's Rights' started by ibshambat, Sep 9, 2018.

  1. ibshambat

    ibshambat Banned

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    Frequently when I talk about beauty of a woman or some women I get accused of being shallow. These people are confused.

    Beauty is not something that's limited to women. There can be a beautiful forest. There can be a beautiful song or a beautiful poem. In both cases there is nothing shallow about either the beautiful object or the love thereof. In case of beauty in nature, it is something that man has not created and cannot re-create, which means that it must be treated respectfully. And in case of beauty in art, it is something that takes talent and effort to produce and likewise deserves respect.

    Is it shallow for women to seek to be attractive? Russian women are very much into being beautiful and they are not shallow. They have a rigorous educational system in which they learn a lot more than do Americans in school, and they have extensive knowledge of literature and arts. Many of them also know what hardship is. Here are women who are smart and strong, as well as beautiful. And the more Americans deal with such women, the less credible will be the case of people who want to claim beauty – or love of beauty - to be shallow.

    Are women “objectified” by stress on beauty? I suppose it can be exasperating if you are a brilliant woman and all people care about is the size of your breasts; however that is not what beauty is about. There are values and there are misuses of values. That something lends to being used for wrong does not make it wrong in itself. For that matter intelligence and strength can also be used for wrong, but it does not make these things wrong. That stupid teenagers abuse unattractive classmates, or that unscrupulous plastic surgeons exploit women's insecurities to keep already attractive women coming back for more treatments, does not damn beauty. It damns the teenagers and the plastic surgeons.

    Is the forest objectified by being regarded as beautiful? Is a poem or a song? Or is it simply a matter of aesthetic appreciation for beauty in all things, including in people?

    So I would like here to stand up to these errors. There is nothing incompatible between beauty and other good traits; and there is nothing incompatible between loving beauty and being a good person. There are enough real causes out there that people should not be wasting their and everyone else's time on completely wrongful directions of feminism. Correct this wrongful direction in feminism and then go on fighting for legitimate causes such as domestic violence and incest.
     
  2. LibChik

    LibChik Well-Known Member

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    I'm a feminist and I'm not sure what exactly you're pointing to. Feminism simply means equal rights and equal responsibility. I'm not sure why you can't subjectively decide what is beautiful to you...that has nothing to do with feminism. Beauty is a very subjective thing...and you're certainly welcome to your opinion.
     
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  3. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Beauty is not subjective. It is a mathematical matter and a deeply rooted, spiritual one - No person in the world would claim the Mona Lisa is an ugly painting or that a symmetric face is an ugly face, neither would anyone claim that a person like Mother Theresa had an ugly character.

    Beauty is objective, but a person who lacks beauty is not a bad person because physical attributes do not define character.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
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  4. LibChik

    LibChik Well-Known Member

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    I 100% disagree. Beauty is extremely subjective and I say that as a minority female who deals daily with the nonsense of what "traditional beauty" is. People see beauty in many different people and often times it transcends physicality. I have had many, many experiences where someone who is supposed to be traditionally attractive doesn't appeal at all to me...or will seem almost disgusting to me. They'll seem shallow or empty or vain...it makes no difference how symmetrical their face is...they just radiate ugliness. And I've had times when someone who is not traditionally beautiful. An old woman...a sick person...someone who's lost their hair, etc is amazingly beautiful to me...sometimes they seem like they're glowing. You may not have had that experience but its definitely not just about the math. Many people see deeper than just the skin...being beautiful is about who and what someone or something is...its not just a function of outward appearance. And to prove my point, beauty ideals are changing. The standard among what was seen as unbelievably beautiful even 30 years ago...is now boring, basic and plain. Beauty is becoming increasingly diverse. The female body beauty stereotype changes from generation to generation.

    There are some mathematical markers for sexuality/mating...ie, waist to hip size for women. Shoulder to waist size for men. But scent is more important than both of those when people look for mates. But that is different from what people see or view as beauty...that is far more diverse and is becoming increasingly so. And that's a good thing.
     
  5. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Who said beauty is connected to race? I only noted that beauty is biological because it has a lot to do with fertility, health and symmetry. I am not sure what "traditional beauty" means, but what I am speaking of is basic facial features and not abstract, random cultural dress codes.

    Yes, beauty comes in many levels, but speaking strictly of physical beauty, it is a matter of objectivity. Of course, a beautiful person can have an ugly personality, but this does not change the fact that they are beautiful.

    Again, I was only speaking of physical beauty.

    Unfortunately, I think we are very simple beings when it comes to detecting physical beauty; we have been hardwired a certain way from hundereds of thousands of years of evolution.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  6. LibChik

    LibChik Well-Known Member

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    lol, oh its highly connected to race. Especially in America.

    I just disagree. There are many of us who cannot divorce the two. In my mind, I can't see past the ugliness of certain people no matter what they look like. They just ooze ugly and I honestly can't see anything else.

    I understand, however, your definition of beauty is very two-dimensional...and I don't agree.

    However, that doesn't explain why our concept of beauty has so radically changed...from country to country...from generation to generation....from culture to culture. Beauty concepts are very diverse. Women putting rings around their necks to have stretched necks...or tattoos covering the body...or cutting slits in skin. There are cultures where the larger you are, the more beautiful you are...something that is very different than our culture. There are cultures where albinos are the revered as beautiful and holy. I could go on and on... Beauty concepts are very diverse worldwide and they do change. Beauty is just a very subjective concept.
     
  7. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Only on a cultural level, but on a biological one - A beautiful black woman is a beautiful woman, just like a beautiful Hispanic woman or Asian woman is too. Beauty has nothing to do with race. However, people may have varying individual preferences, but these are never absolute and nothing that refutes the fact that there is an objective element to beauty.

    So, you are actually suggesting that you have never looked at a stranger on the street and thought to yourself that "Oh, that's a handsome man!" or that you have never found a male celebrity to be attractive? Come on, you are not fooling anyone. :)

    Personality plays an extremely important part, indeed. But, even if you do not know a person's personality, you can still find them beautiful.

    It really is not, I do understand how the different elements of beauty are inter-tangled, but I am only speaking of physical beauty when I say that beauty is - more or less - objective.

    This does not refute the fact that physical beauty is biological. All the things you have mentioned are cultural aspects that do not really have anything to do with facial features, but only with "fashion". I am speaking strictly about facial feautures, the things you are born with and cannot change by putting a ring around your neck or a short, tight skirt.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  8. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    I have adressed this question previously in this thread; http://www.politicalforum.com/index...e-or-subjective-cultural-or-universal.475598/ and really do not feel to dwell into it again. If you are interested in the topic matter and/or my opinions on it, you can go to that thread and read the posts; quite the read and an interesting discussion, if you ask me (apart from my posts being poorly written without proofreading lol).
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  9. LibChik

    LibChik Well-Known Member

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    Of course I see people and think they're beautiful but again its very subjective. There have been sooooo many times where I'll see a person...say to my husband or kid "oh that person is beautiful" and they'll make a face or just shake their head. We don't agree and most people don't agree on what beautiful is. I know men that see a woman with huge implants who'll think is very attractive and my husband honestly thinks breast implants are revolting...especially when you can clearly see the implant. So its not the same for everyone.

    Except that isn't at all true. For instance, there are a large contingent of people who never find actual black people attractive at all. And only see some beauty in them if their features resemble caucasian traits. They find nothing attractive about the skin color, hair type, or facial features of most black people. Same is true of other cultures. And there are a large contingent of people who find those features beautiful. Its subjective and its also changing. For instance, white women now get lip injections to make their lips look full...when I was younger, full lips were not a thing at all...in fact, quite the opposite. So even at a shape, mathematical level, things change. Another major face feature that's changed is eyebrows. Women used to literally remove them and pencil in thin lines. Now, they do completely the opposite. Women with thin eyebrows use dip brow, etc to create the illusion of thick eyebrows. I could name dozens more of these things.

    I do understand what you're saying. I just don't agree about beauty standards. Like I said, I think you're right on certain mating markers...having to do with body proportion but that's much different than beauty.

    Again, it changes. And culture does matter in beauty standards..that's one of the reasons its subjective...you can't separate those things. I mentioned eyebrows and lips...those radically change the way your face looks. Noses would be another one. The rhinoplasty they do has changed radically. And that's just inside one culture. Over many cultures that standard changes radically. Look at how Roman's viewed the "Roman nose" compared to how other cultures viewed it.

    Beauty is a very subjective thing. From person to person, from culture to culture, from age to age. I guarantee you that what you see as beautiful a lot of people wouldn't and vice versa.
     
  10. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Except we do agree on a very basic level - youthfulness, healthiness and fertility are the factors that constitute beauty, but this is of course a very narrow categorisation that is open for the broad aspects of subjective taste.

    The young Mariah Carey was very beautiful and so was Aaliyah. Furthermore, there have been countless beautiful African women competing in the Miss Universe pageants. It is not as if dark skin is an "uglifier" or that African features are unattrictive per se. However, I guess people tend to prefer the features of their own race. I personally prefer fair skin, light hair and light eyes, but this is no more than a preferece which means it is nothing absolute and exclusive.

    I know Africans who do not find "Whiteness" beautiful. It is not that there are a set of limited faces and colours that are objectively beautiful. What is objectively beautful is a set of traits that we are hardwired to prefer due to a long evolutionary process.

    This is why I am so specific about using the term physical beauty and not just "beauty".

    Beauty standards are mostly about accessories and are not really connected to the biological aspects of which I am speaking.

    A nose that is way out of proportion is almost always considered an ugly nose.

    This is true, but we all share the preference for a certain set of traits.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
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  11. LibChik

    LibChik Well-Known Member

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    We'll have to agree to disagree. I discussed the Roman nose...it wasn't in proportion at all...that's why it was considered beautiful. And I disagree that youthfulness is a requirement for beauty at all. Some of the most beautiful people I've ever seen were elderly. Health also isn't a requirement to me. There is an artist you can google that takes pictures of terminal patients...and they're amazingly beautiful. I worked with a woman who got a terminal diagnosis years ago...but she had this determination to live her life with purpose for the time she had. If you had seen her, she literally glowed and when she lost her hair, she was even more beautiful. I actually don't even remember her individual features anymore...but I remember her beauty almost like an aura.

    The way people see beauty is not at all standard....not even close. There's no "standard" when it comes to beauty at all because everyone sees it differently. Using the term "physically beauty" instead of "beauty" makes zero difference to what I said. It would still be just as subjective.
     
  12. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Again, you are confusing the terminology. Youthfulness does not mean that you become ugly as soon as you turn x years old. It is about preserving a "youthful look" with good skin and a full set of hair. Elderly people are rarely considered physically beautiful, but as far as soul goes, I do agree that the elderly are very beautiful people.

    That means she managed to preserve the traits of healthinese despite being ill. Here, too, it is more about signs of health rather than actual health (although the two are often - but, not always - connected).

    Science speaks against you. ;)

    I am not a big fan of talking about physical beauty because it feels bad when you are judging someone solely for their looks. Normally, this is not how I go about when I meet new people, but I think it is an interesting question to discuss, from a evo-bio perspective.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  13. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    You’re speaking like an extremist...you are again reducing the feminist women to beauty. This is about equal rights, to objectifying women or men!
     
  14. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    He doesn’t get it ..he thinks we all have the same criteria for beauty.
     
  15. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    In my prejudice workshop we list all the prejudices..and then say which is privileged....
    Race..
    Gender
    Nationality
    Sexual orientation and it goes on
    When we do looks most groups define looks with terms like. Tall thin, big boobs etc....they are defining women , not men. I will ask a guy if he would like to have large breasts..and then they realize it is women who they are defining
     
  16. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have a beautifull conception of beauty. I think you're just honnest. The problem is that the concept of equality is globally a disaster. Why does I speak of equality ? Because beauty is one of the point on what we're deeply unequal. I'm not particular concerned, I'm neither beautifull or ugly.

    Then came the concept of equality. Equality became an important concept because people were unequal in front of the law(and are still depending of how much lawyers you can hire). Equality in front of the law is important. But when equality become an important matter as an end, it's a disaster. That's the base of communism.

    If some people are hostile to the fact that you point beautifullness of some people, it's because that put them on front of the fact : we're deeply unequal and our appearance remind that everyday. That's a concern of a lot of people "if only I was more beautifull". Beautifull people create envy.

    But what I prefer is delicateness in beauty. I hate our times for that, it's all about show-off, excess and crudeness.

    This beautiful female virtuoso singing is one of the most beautifull thing I saw :


    Julia Lezhneva isn't beautifull physically, she isn't ugly, but she isn't beautifull. But her joy while she is singing, her class make her one of the most beautifull woman I saw :


    I'm addicted of this feeling which is discovering something beautifull, either a beautifull woman, a beautifull painting, a beautifull landscape or a beautifull music.
     
  17. ibshambat

    ibshambat Banned

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    Well, I find it flattering when people appreciate me for my looks. I do not understand why a woman would not find such a thing flattering.
     
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not only beauty but perception of beauty. A woman with a big honking ass could be "too big to handle" in one community but a volumptuous sex goddess in another.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  19. LibChik

    LibChik Well-Known Member

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    I'd be upset if the only thing someone admired about me was the way I look. Its literally the least important thing about me.
     
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  20. LibChik

    LibChik Well-Known Member

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    Yea, I just read this and I TOTALLY disagree. I don't find elderly beautiful people because they look youthful at all. I have seen many elderly looking people and admired their beauty because of their wrinkles...the way they carry themselves...and that serene quality that comes with wisdom and knowledge. You just seem to have a very shallow, limited and under-developed view of what defines beauty and luckily, not everyone shares that. As I said earlier, you're welcome to admire beauty however you choose but don't assume everyone sees things the way that you do.
     
  21. ibshambat

    ibshambat Banned

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    OK, but what about all the other women who find such an attention flattering? I find such a thing flattering as a man, and I am not someone who was physically attractive when I was younger.
     
  22. ibshambat

    ibshambat Banned

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    This is interesting. I have been with a significantly older woman, and I found her to be very beautiful. So did most others.
     
  23. LibChik

    LibChik Well-Known Member

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    You're allowed to be flattered by whatever you want...so is anyone else. I was stating my personal views...how I look is just a skin suit and is a transient, temporary thing. If that's what I relied on to feel good about who and what I was...I'd be an extremely unhappy person chasing a lot of unhealthy things. But to each their own.
     
  24. LibChik

    LibChik Well-Known Member

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    I think I've gotten more beautiful as I've aged...but not because of the way I look necessarily...but because I laugh a lot more, I'm wiser, I'm more mellow and I spend more time doing things to help other people and find purpose in my life. There are people that just grow more and more beautiful the longer they are on the planet.
     
  25. ibshambat

    ibshambat Banned

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    That is true. And then of course there are many who go the opposite direction.
     

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