Part 38 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Mitt Ryan, Mar 30, 2017.

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  1. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is not enough water stored in clouds and ice. There may be almost enough stored in minerals in the mantle, but that's not yet verified. Even then, given that you'd need to add about 3-5 km of water across the globe, there isn't enough water. Furthermore, that amount of water does not fall in 40 days and nights. We are talking about filling the average depth of the Atlantic ocean with rainfall over the span of a month all across Earth. Science and Geology have undeniably shown this as impossibility, there is no ongoing dispute.
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    There is a good sized list of reasons a world flood of Biblical proportions could not happen, let alone as described.

    Besides, Noah is just as meaningful as an allegory - perhaps more so. Why get wrapped up in details when there are issues of greater import?

    What does it mean for a God to be infinitely and timelessly knowledgable, who knows everything to the end of time, yet changes his mind about wiping out all mankind?
     
  3. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    There is also a good sized list of reasons a world flood of Biblical proportions could have happened.


    The Great Flood is a meaningful story of a true life historical event as recorded/documented in the Holy Bible.


    I'm not the one getting wrapped up in details regarding the Great Flood, it's people like you the non-believers who get wrapped up in the details. I'm not the one disputing the true stories of the Holy Bible.


    God does not change His mind and yes God is infinitely and timelessly knowledgeable, who knows everything to the end of time.
     
  4. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why is it you don't understand the action of water. It cannot cover mountains as in the Bible.

    Why don't these pro-flood people stop and think for a moment. Rain is the result of water being drawn from the oceans by heat - thus lowering the ocean level by a miniscule amount. Under the right conditions it falls back to earth and, due to gravity etc, makes its way back to the oceans. Raising the level to its original state. Rain cannot run uphill or stay static on sloping ground, unless it has a barrier, like a dam. A lake may overflow, but its waters will then make for the lowest ground and eventually a river and thus to the ocean again. Rain falling on high ground finds its way back to the ocean. I.e. The Tigris, Euphrates, Ganges, Amazon, Congo. The Nile in particular is due to rain falling in mountains 3000 miles away in African highlands.
    There are vast reserves of water underground, but the same applies. If underground water rose to the surface it would leave a vacuum, or vast empty space beneath filled with air. As water is heavier than air it would immediately fall back again, if it ever rose at all. Of course, if the seabed collapsed and filled the space that would solve the problem of the empty space - except the water level above would fall back to its original level.

    And springs of water are due to pressure of water at its source in higher ground. Some springs are sourced from great distances.

    There is no debate about 'Noahs' flood. The only debate is which local flood it is refering to.
     
  5. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    Your time frame is off. Obviously all those civilizations you mentioned all had occurred after the Great Flood. Noah and his family of 8 initially started the repopulation process and it took some time for the world to be populated to the extent that civilizations were possible to be formed around the world.
     
  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Have you seen the video footage and / or photographs of what sure look like chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea?

    This kind of surprised me because I read that the word for Red Sea in the original hebrew, (Yom Suph) actually meant Sea of Reeds.

    Chariot wheels in the Red Sea?






    Why are there chariot wheels on the floor of the Red Sea?
    1. *
      Because Moses and the Exodus story might just be based on fact.
      4 vote(s)
      36.4%

    2. It could be an elaborate hoax.... maybe the Knights Templar?????
      1 vote(s)
      9.1%

    3. Elaborate hoax other source.....
      4 vote(s)
      36.4%

    4. I am not sure but I will look further into this?????
      2 vote(s)
      18.2%
    Change Your Vote
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
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  7. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Noah*s flood = the zombie that will not die.
     
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You'll have to account for where that much water came from and where it went, for why geology doesnt show a record of such a flood, for the heat equation involviing that much condensation, etc.
    The Noah story is just as meaninigful as an allegory as it would be had it been literal.

    Finding that there was no actual flood of that magnitude dosn't mean the messagee is false. Allegories are an important method humans have used to convey truths.

    God changed his mind about humans due to Noah's acts.
     
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  9. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is not "debatable" from a scientific perspective without denial of reality. Also one would have to believe that God/Satan - after the fact - intentionally covered up the evidence of the flood and altered the earth in such a way as to make it look like the flood never happened.

    For example: The Biblical date of the flood is 2100-2300 BC. Throughout the world we have continuous civilizations during this time period in China, India, Africa, Europe, South America, Egypt, Sumeria, Australia and so on.

    If there was a flood that wiped out all living land creatures - we would not have this. What we would find "In ALL CASES" was the remnants of some civilization - a particular art, culture, pottery, language, bone structure, genetics and so on. This civilization would suddenly end and this end would coincide with the finding of flood evidence (easily detectable by shells, marine silt and so on).

    We simply don't find this with inland civilizations at all - never mind "all of them". Sure some end but, not by a flood. We should find this all over the place - hundreds if not thousands of them - all dating to the same time with the same ending. Nope - nothing.

    After such a flood it would take many centuries for the population to re-establish itself and make it back to places like Australia and North America. What we would find then is the remnants of the old civilization - complete with a unique art, culture, language, pottery, bone structure, genetics and so on. Then in the layer on top we would find some new people with a different art, culture, language, pottery bone structure, genetics and so on.

    Instead what we find is continuous culture throughout this time period and for centuries - and millennia after. In the midwest you should be able to dig down a few feet and find the flood layer. In areas that were covered by ice during the last ice age it should be simple as pie. The layer of glacial till left behind by the receding ice is easily identifiable. Somewhere between this layer and the surface should be an easily identifiable flood layer (shells, marine sediments and so on). It is simply not there.

    In order for this layer not to be there - God would have had to have come and erased this layer - all over the earth in similar inland areas.

    One could just as easily argue that the Earth used to be flat and that some 2000 years ago God decided to form it into a ball.

    If we all came from Noah's line - some 2000 years ago - this would stick out in the DNA of every living human like a sore thumb. God/Satan would then have to erased all traces of this and done some serious genetic manipulation in order to Trick later humans into thinking that the Flood story was a not true - same with erasing the global flood layer.

    You can believe this if you like but - this is what one "must" believe in order to believe that the flood story in the Bible is the literal truth - along with a whole lot of other really irrational things.
     
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  10. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Growing up in the 1960's I was told the word "universe" meant "everything"
    Now it means "one universe of potentially many"
    The term changed during my lifetime.

    It says Noah's flood covered the whole "earth" or "world"
    But the "whole world" was taxed in Jesus' day, and it meant the Roman Empire.
    And the "whole world" went after Jesus, but it meant those who believed in Him.
    And the world was the Babylonian empire at one stage.
    The "world" meant different things in different ages. I suppose Noah's flood was
    a severe local event at a time when the "world" was encompassed by the sky
    which reached down at the horizon.
     
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  11. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    According to the Bible timeline, "Creationism", the vast majority of Biblical scholarship and so on, Abraham walked the earth around 1800 BC and not later than around 2000 BC. The reason for 1800 dating is due to a reference to one of the Kings who is thought to be Hamurrabi. Putting this aside though - the various nations that are mentioned to have existed at the time rules out a dating much prior to 2000 BC. We could argue - with difficulty - for 2100 but it just gets stupid to argue earlier than this.

    The Bible clearly states that Abraham was born some 300 years after Noah (and in fact Noah was still alive at the time according to the Bible - a fact that is hugely problematic to the whole Bible story in general but this is a different story).

    2100- 2300 is then when the flood would have had to have occurred with 2400 being the earliest.
     
  12. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    I spoke of Noah's Ark in another thread and there you will find overwhelming evidence against not a "worldwide" flood but the "whole planet" getting flooded. Terminology is important for context.

    Anyway, here is my tough question: If the Bible is historical fact and Moses wrote the book of Numbers, who besides Balaam witnessed a talking donkey? There were no witnesses to it. Did voices in Moses' head tell him? Why should others believe him without any witnesses to back him up?
     
  13. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree with everything you are saying. The post however is addressed to someone who believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible - an interpretation which believes the whole earth was covered. This Bible says that every land creature was wiped out - sans Noah and family and the creatures in the Ark.

    At the end of the day the Flood story in Genesis was definitely inspired by a local flood. It is a re-telling of the Sumerian and Near East creation myth written thousands of years earlier - co-opted by Biblical Authors around 5-600 BC.
     
  14. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There was no notion back then of what the world actually was. No-one thought
    of it as a planet because a planet was a "wandering star."
    It's easy to take the low hanging fruit of Noah or a talking donkey. It's a tactic
    employed to dismiss the much harder things, such as the historicity of the
    Jewish conquest of Palestine, the temple, the house of David, the various kings
    and emperors mentioned in the bible etc..
     
  15. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Take it the other way around. Maybe the Sumerian account was taken from the bible?
    Abraham himself was Sumerian, so saying the bible borrowed from Sumer is a bit of
    a stretch.
    Take that 500 BC writing of the bible theory with a pinch of salt.
     
  16. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Oh wait! I think I figured out what could have happened! Maybe Balaam himself told of the talking donkey to others and the gossip somehow made it to the Israelites. And then it was backed up by Moses hearing voices in his head!

    If you can believe that, you can also believe that I am the Emperor of China!
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is an interesting idea - one I have pondered. Obviously the Bible did not exist prior to Abraham - in fact - the earliest one might claim that any of significant portions of the Bible was written was during the time of Moses which is what roughly 1300 BC ?

    There is no doubt that Abraham - being from Ur - was familiar with the Sumerian creation stories. In fact the God of Abraham was none other than "Enlil" (El, Elyon) a prominent figure in the Sumerian and Near east creation epics and flood story. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Abraham

    Over time the characteristics of El and other Gods were fused into YHWH. While some parts of the Bible may date to oral tradition or stories that date back further than 600 ( non however are attributed to a time much prior to 1000 on the basis of writing style) the fact of the matter is that the Israelite's were not strict monotheists - hence - they would have not written from a monotheistic perspective.

    This tradition arose after the Babylonian captivity under the Persians. Prior to that (and this is all straight from the Bible never mind when you look at external evidence) the Israelite's were not strict monotheists. They only worshiped one God but, they believed in a divine pantheon .. they believed in other Gods.

    In fact - if one reads the Bible - you will find that the Israelite's spend very little time worshiping this YHWH fellow. The God of Abraham is "El Shaddai" - otherwise known as "The God of the Mountain" - "The Most High" = El

    We can get into modern scholarship if you like (which is why the Encyclopedia Britannica says what it says) but, for now lets just look at what the Bible says.

    Joshua 24 tells us

    So the Israelite's in Egypt were not worshiping YHWH. ... in fact many are obviously still worshiping other God's in Joshua's time (which is bizarre but I will let you ponder that one)

    Which God are they worshiping while in Egypt ? We know this. As soon as Moses takes off for a few weeks the people - Let by Aaron (the Brother of Moses) go right back to worshiping El (Bull-El).

    Now it is one thing to believe in a God on the basis of a book. Quite another when you have seen God with your own eyes - and he has been following you around in a Tent (Tent of the Lords presence) - Joshua was even in the Tent.

    What on earth are the Israelite's doing worshiping other God's - and why is Joshua giving them a choice ?? The law clearly states that if a few in a town are worshiping other Gods - all in that town are to be slaughtered. Something is wrong here ... "ding ding ding".

    Shortly after this speech Joshua dies and the Israelite's go right back to worshiping other Gods. When you get to Solomon - he is building temples to other Gods - including child sacrifice Gods.

    After this YHWH is completely forgotten. Elijah tells us that he is the only prophet left for YHWH .. 500 for Baal and 450 for Asherah (YHWH's consort).

    Just before the Babylonian captivity the "Book of the Law" is miraculously rediscovered. How long was it lost for ?

    In any case. Writings from a strict monotheistic perspective either date from the period after the Babylonian Captivity or were altered to fit the monotheistic perspective.
     
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  18. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    The good thing about Christianity is that it allows man to ask these tough questions. It gives a lot of agency to man and every individual, therefore, has to negotiate with his inner self to come up with the most morally correct solution. Existential dilemmas do not exist in the same way in other religions.
     
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  19. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Beeswax - Christianity does no such thing. The Christian child is taught that if they "question" or "do not believe" certain tenets of some holy book the worst horror the mind can imagine will happen to them - eternal torture in the afterlife.

    This sophisticated mind control technique stifles critical thinking. This fear is implanted deep into the adherents subconscious. When the adherent comes across information that conflicts with cult dogma the fear reaction is triggered which results the adherent engaging in various thought stopping techniques such as avoidance, denial or demonization of the other - anything to avoid thinking the "bad thought"

    The reason for this is that thinking that "bad thought" might lead to the horrible punishment - eternal torture in the afterlife.

    The adherent is not even aware of what is happening on a subconscious level.

    A Jewish child on the other hand is taught to question everything ... even God.

    There is very little difference between the fear based mind control inherent in Christianity than in other religions such as Islam or Hinduism. Same sht .. different pile.
     
  20. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    We have to remember that while animals are not capable of speaking, there are powerful beings out there (God, the angels, satan, the demons) who are capable of the impossible, including enabling animals to speak.

    Regarding the story of the rebellious pagan prophet Balaam and his donkey, it was God who enabled the donkey to speak.

    We Read in Scripture:

    28 Then the Lord gave the donkey the ability to speak. "What have I done to you that deserves your beating me three times?" it asked Balaam.---Numbers 22:28 NLT

    This story just goes to show that God can use anyone, even a donkey and a rebellious prophet, to do His will and speak His truth.

    And no it wasn't voices in Moses' head that told him about this story regarding the rebellious pagan prophet Balaam and his donkey. It was obviously God who told Moses the story that enabled Moses to write about it in the Book of Numbers.

    God and Moses had a close relationship. They were in harmony with each other, just as close friends are. God and Moses were not literally face to face, but their relationship and communication was very much like two people who spoke to one another as close friends would.

    We Read in Scripture:

    11 Inside the Tent of Meeting, the Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Afterward Moses would return to the camp, but the young man who assisted him, Joshua son of Nun, would remain behind in the Tent of Meeting. ---Exodus 33:11 NLT
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This is an example of how religion kills science.

    Religion says it makes absolutely no difference what we see.
     
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  22. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    See link below, it thoroughly explains where did the water come from and where did it go after the flood.

    http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c010.html

    There is geologic evidence for the great flood as written in Genesis, it's just that non-believers like yourself deny those evidence.


    The Noah story is to be taken literally, in other words it was a true historical event. God did not tell Moses oh by the way this story I'm telling you is just a made up story, I'm just using it as an allegory for teaching and explaining ideas, moral principles, etc.

    Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ took the flood story literally.

    We Read in Scripture:

    26 "When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. 27 In those days, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came and destroyed them all.---Luke 17:26-27 NLT




    You don't need to explain allegories to me, I know what they are and I also know that the Noah story is a literal story, not an allegorical story.


    God does not change His mind, He did not change His mind regarding humans, obviously you're misinterpreting the great flood story.

    We Read in Scripture:

    19 God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind.
    Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through? ---Numbers 23:19 NLT
     
  23. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    First of all, stating something as the absolute truth because the Bible says so, is not a winning argument with a non-believer.

    Second, if it was not face to face, then yes that would qualify as voices in his head. If I has just enough charisma to convince someone I spoke with Yahweh but did not meet him face to face, then that too would qualify as voices in my head if not an outright lie. On top of that, since I'm one with Yahweh, I can make up whatever stories that Yahweh told me and everyone will believe me. Hey I think Yahweh is speaking through my dog!
     
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, your cite does NOT say where it came from OR where it went. It makes some guesses for which there is NO evidence. The thing is, that water isn't anywhere to be seen today. And, there is no gaping hole somewhere from which that water came. Rain doesn't answer for it. Besides, condensation (rain) involves heat, and there is also no accounting for the heaat equation. And, water doesn't just "go away".

    Your quote of a reference to the Noah story certainlly does NOT suggest it is real. Take a look at other allegories. Today, we say "sour grapes", which is a reference to an allegory by Aesop. When we refer to that allegory we don't make the story of the fox and the grapes real!! We only refer to it - like Luke referred to the Noah story.

    That doesn't detract from the story. It's just as meaningful whether it is history or allegory.
     
  25. Mitt Ryan

    Mitt Ryan Well-Known Member

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    I'm not answering questions regarding Christianity to win arguments with non-believers. If you don't want to believe in the Creator Almighty God that's your choice. You think I'm here to convert non-believers? It's not my job to turn non-believers into believers. You want an absolute truth? Here is an absolute truth... no one can prove/disprove God or anything else regarding the Holy Bible. You asked me questions and I answered them keeping in line with the Christian faith. The Holy Bible is not a book where God is trying to prove His existence to us. He wants people to come to Him and believe in Him through their faith in Him. We learn about God through reading His Holy Bible. Again, if you don't want to believe in Him that's your choice.

    Sorry but I'm not here to debate and try to win arguments against you. I answered your initial /previous post so I'm done here.
     
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