The bible is written in such a way

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by bricklayer, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A being that exists and has its being necessarily. A necessary being is what it is necessarily. A necessary being is simple actuality; it has no potentiality. Necessary being has no potential to come to know, come to emote, come to will, come to be or not be. Necessary being is inviolate (holy). Necessary being is metaphysical (immaterial), meta-spatial (spiritual) and meta-temporal (eternal).

    My observations of material contingency left me to believe in, and start looking for, a necessary being. To date, I am left to believe that the God of the bible uniquely fulfills the implications of a necessary being.
     
  2. dave8383

    dave8383 Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    I see:

     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  3. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    necessary being'
    sounds like an excuse.
     
  4. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    This again seems to be something you've decided, not something that is necessarily true. It seems to me it is quite possible for an author to be affected by their novel, indeed, they may derive their identity as a writer from their novel. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of personal essence, but there are those who are, and it seems to me an author can derive their essence from their novel.

    Again, this doesn't show me how you've come to the conclusions.
    That may be true. However, what good is any communication if consistently fails to be recognised? I am asking you these questions because I am trying to understand. I'm asking you to lead me through the steps, but you seem only to repeat the conclusions.
    This seems to effectively be just another repetition of things you have already said. I remain completely unable to check whether your logic is sound. It looks like the athlete who rejects getting tested for performance enhancing drugs. The drugs aren't common, but the fact that they refuse to be transparent already raises suspicion.
     
  5. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I didn't say I believed in the supernatural. I said I believe in the things 'considered supernatural'. For most there is, or will be an explanation. Many things considered supernatural in the past have now been explained. For centuries it was considered not natural that stars 'went backward' in their course at certain times, but they appeared to. And they still appear to at times - but there's an explanation discovered by Copernicus. It's happened down the millenia. If we use the term supernatural it simply means they are above things we understand.
    That is the same in the religious realm. If god existed he would be supernatural - beyond our understanding. 'Spirits'. Do they exist? If they do they are supernatural - at the moment. We have no means of knowing or detecting them.

    My opposition to Christianity? I am opposed to any religion that worships a 'god' they cannot show me. That means all religions. I have already shown, much earlier, my opposition to Islam. The Qu'ran is probably more obnoxious (at least to the Western mind), and certainly more mentally disturbing, than the Bible.
     
  6. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    The Qur'an is only 14% of Islamic doctrine, and is nothing compared to the Sunnah,
    Pure evil.
     
  7. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So I've read. Though never looked at it.
     
  8. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No contradictions? How many pairs of every kind of birds did god tell Noah to take on the ark?
    What did Judas do with the silver he received from the Sanhedrin to sell out Jesus?
    How did king Saul die?

    You have to be seriously delusional to not see the blatant contradictions in the Bible.
     
  9. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe you.
    I build men who build things. I spend a lot of time teaching grown men. One of the 'things' I use pretty often goes like this. I hold my hand out so that the other man sees the palm, four fingers and my thumb, but I can only see my thumb and the outside edge of my index finger. I then ask the man if he is aware that my hand looks very different to me than it does to him. I then assure him that I believe him. I assure him that I believe that he is describing my hand as honestly and as accurately as he can. And only then will I ask him if he believes that I'm doing the same thing.

    I absolutely love the back and forth we do here at PF. You're especially good at it. But please, don't ever get the impression that I am trying to persuade you, or anyone else. I describe things the way I see them as honestly and as accurately as I can. I do this in the hopes that others will help be move forward (find out where I'm wrong).

    As to your statement to the effect that I only offer conclusions. Please, allow me to, I dare say, again start from the beginning of the process that left me believing what I am currently left to believe. I did not always believe that there was a necessary being. I did not start with that conclusion. For me, it all started with my observation of material contingency. I observed that all matter is subject to change. Then it dawned on me that anything subject to change is contingent in its being. This piqued my curiosity because, if contingent being exists, necessary being must exist. These things developed of the course of years. And, of course, the above can be expanded upon, as we have done, I only offer it again to assert that I do not start with, or only offer, conclusions.

    What I cannot offer you, or anyone else, is something that I do not have or require. I cannot offer you proof positive. As I've written many times, I am left to believe that the closest thing that we will ever have to proof positive is experimental repeatability. Pointing out that we are contingent beings, and therefore know contingently, does not invalidate human knowledge. It just puts it into the proper perspective, and for that I applaud you.

    To us, contingent beings, it's not so much that ideas are really ever proved to us as it is that all of the other ideas that we have considered have been, to our satisfaction, disproved. Whatever remains is what we are left to believe. Then, that's tested, and so on, and so on. Science is the process wherein doubt is removed by testing new and old ideas. (Religion is the process wherein doubt is suppressed by resistance to testing new and old ideas.)

    Beyond that, I must admit that I'm sometimes unable to understand what you describe either. I guess the difference is that I assume that you're communicating in good faith and that, until I'm able to reiterate your perspective back to you in a way that you affirm my iteration of your perspective, I still have work to do. I am sometimes persuaded that others are insincere need too much remediation, or really haven't thought through their descriptions of their perspectives, but I don't think that of you. Again, I'll outline the process that has left me to believe what I'm currently left to believe.

    Material Contingency - self-evident
    If contingent-being exists, necessary-being must exist - axiomatic
    I can find a necessary-being described in the God of the bible. - continuing to test
    I have not found a necessary-being described anywhere else - failed tests

    Finally, understanding is only a part of faith. Faith involves the entire person intellect, emotion and volition. Faith is a complex of understanding, trust and identity. To the extent that one understands a thing, trusts that thing and identifies with that thing, that one has faith in that thing. Faith is not non-sense; it is just more than just understanding. The more I test, the more I trust. The more I trust, the more I identify with what I am left to believe. That is why, when my understandings change, my faith is not fatally affected. It is the balance of my faith that emboldens me to refine my understanding. My trust and my identity are not negatively affected by improvements in my understandings; indeed, they are strengthened it them.
     
  10. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The bible also says that the sun rises and sets. The bible obviously employs perspective. In fact, as the best compositions do, the bible employees multiple perspectives.

    I do a lot of teaching. One of the techniques that I employ goes like this. I put my hand out in such a way that the other man sees the palm of my hand, four fingers and my thumb while I can only see my thumb and one side of my index finger. Then, I ask him if he is aware of the fact that my thumb looks very different to me right then than it does to him. I also ask him if he thinks if the two ways that my hand looks to us is contradictory or complimentary. If he says complimentary, I can begin teaching him how to read the drawings. The first thing one learns when one begins working with mechanical drawings is that they cannot build anything that is right and true from only one point of view. I hold that same standard with my opinions.
     
  11. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus returns he says that he will kill everyone. Who do you think will be helping him slaughter the world's population?
     
  12. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    Where does he say that.
     
  13. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    2 pair of each except for birds used for sacrifice, those he took 7 pair. No contradiction, you just have to read.

    Harder to explain, but not at all impossible and certainly acceptable explanations are available.

    Judas threw the money in the Temple, the priests would not use blood money so they bought the field with it and bought it in Judas' name. That suits Judaism and the events described in Acts and Matthew.

    No contradiction. You just have to read and understand Judaism.

    1 Samuel 31 and 2 Samuel 21 tells the historical event of the battle and Sauls death, Saul was mortally wounded by the Philistines and then fell on his own sword to avoid capture and disgrace. Those events are consistent with the time and culture.

    2 Samuel 1 tells the story of David learning of Saul's death from an Amelikite. The Amelikite lied hoping to receive some reward from David. Saul, a Jew, would never ask an Amelikite (a gentile, and one abhorred by the Jews of the time) to kill him.

    No contradiction at all, you just have to read.

    If you don't just read the Bible, then you appear to be seriously deluded and see contradictions that do not exist.
     
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  14. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    This giant word salad boils down to circular logic, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you.
     
  15. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Wrong again.

    When Jesus returns he does not kill everyone, he kills those who have rejected him and fight on the side of the devil. And Jesus does the killing, he is not helped by the Christians.

    Don't blame God. You have all the info, you pick your side, you reap the reward or pay the penalty. If you are alive when the final battle occurs, and you see what was predicted in the Bible coming true and you still reject Jesus and pick the wrong side, then its your own fault.

    Read the Bible.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  16. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Genesis 6:
    19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you.
    20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.

    This is specifically saying two of “every kind” of bird, animal & creatures.

    Genesis 7:2-3

    The Lord then said to Noah,

    2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive.

    This is a clear contradiction concerning both animals and birds. To say otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest. What is clear is that Christians are attempting to spray perfume on dung when they make assumptions of what the text isn’t saying. This is exactly what you would expect from faulible men.

    These scriptures are supposed to be coming from an all knowing perfect god. It would be expected that if the amelikite were lying and trying to get an reward, the text would say that. Instead, they give contradictory events with no explanation otherwise. This is not consistent when considering whom the writings are attributed. Same goes for the Judas story. I would expect that if this god had meant what you claim, he would say it that way. The reality is that these writings are of men with little collusion to get stories straight, which is consistent with being written in a time when correspondence is difficult and decades after the fact(Judas story).

    I have read the Bible and have no problem understanding what it specifically says, when supposedly coming from a perfect higher being. These writings, in no way, reflect this kind of being or the communications of such a being.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  17. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Mumbo jumbo. Your higher being communicates like faulible men.
     
  18. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Moses yakked with Jealous face to face.

    In Judges 13:22 (ESV) = And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, for we have seen God.”
     
  19. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Allah is the pagan moon god of the Arabians. It is part of the reason they sync their religious observances to the phases of the moon.
     
  20. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Wrong.

    Genesis 6 is talking about animals, Genesis is talking about clean animals. They are not the same. Every Jew knows they are different and there is no contradiction. Its only people who dont know anything that think there is a contradiction.
     
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  21. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Then why correct me for addressing your arguments as from an atheistic materialist? Plausible deniability? Deflection?
     
  22. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    “Every kind” includes all animals. Besides, the birds are not labeled, yet contradict. You just can’t see while looking through rose colored glasses.
     
  23. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Animals and clean animals are 2 separate categories in Judaism. Its no different than saying mammals and reptiles, or apples and oranges. The problem people face with these so-called "contradictions" is a lack of understanding of Judaism and the Mosaic Law. You read the Bible (assuming you have read it and didn't just cut and paste from a google on "bible contradictions") in English and from perspective of a different culture and then think you understand.

    And these "contradictions" are all explained, I'm sure the explanations come up when you do your google on "Bible contradictions", you just don't read them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  24. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Birds? 7? 2? You can’t get around this.
     
  25. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Don't eat bacon if you want to get to heaven or paradise
     

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