Lies and False Narratives of Christianity

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by usfan, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The evidence is that the fires in northern California came from poorly maintained power lines and other human factors.

    You need to do better than suck up what one individual claims, while failing to read what real investigation actually turns up.

    If those fires came from earthquakes or magma, there would be very serious evidence.
     
  2. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Since you preface every remark with a hostile, ad hom laced tirade, as you do with other posters, here, I feel no desire to engage you in conversation. You only distort other's posts, ridicule and demean them, and spew your own beliefs as if they were gospel truth. They are not. They are deliberate distortions from an enemy of Christianity, using this thread to propagate your own dogmatic beliefs, and promote a phony narrative of Christianity.

    Your treatment of jeanette and chris also expose hostile intent, not civil debate. Bullying and bluff are your tools, and they expose you as a propagandist.

    If all you have is disruptive, demeaning rants from some offbeat, crackpot perception of Christian and biblical scholarship, no intelligent discussion can take place. I certainly have no desire to see you flood this thread with conspiracy theories and crackpot notions, masquerading as 'scholarship!'
     
  3. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What you mean someone else who you will not debate because you cannot, and so result to ad hom again. You really should try to stop losing you temper.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  4. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    I am curious as to what you consider 'Truth', in the context of philosophical beliefs.. is atheism, truth? That would imply that any theistic belief is a lie..
    It seems less dogmatic, to see atheism as a belief, rather than the Truth. I cannot see how you could prove your beliefs are objective 'Truth,' anyway.
    No wonder you dislike all those horrible people!
    :eekeyes:

    But these are just caricatures.. straw men of 'Christians!' to provoke fear in the ignorant.

    'Illegal drugs!', is a Christian issue?

    Is not 'morality' a social issue? Are not all laws reflections of the 'morality' of society?

    Prohibition? :roflol:

    Really?

    You go back that far, and revise that as something christians forced on you?

    That was from your classic liberals, and cut from the same cloth as abolitionists, suffragettes, civil rights activists, and child labor reformers. So you'll take credit for abolition, women's suffrage, and civil rights, but blame the evil 'Christians!' for prohibition? :roflol:
    No, atheism is a channel. It is a belief, about the nature of the universe. Didn't you bring up YouTube channels by atheists, where they promote their views? It is a competing channel, in the Widescreen TV of life, trying to attract viewers and followers, of their ideology. It even gets taxpayer subsidies.. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  5. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Truth to me is first confirmed facts. Failing the ability to confirm a fact, truth is the correct way to process information and the world around you.

    Truth can never be put in a singular package. There are sets of truths and some sets have lies thrown in. Example: I believe the story told in the book of Joshua is a lie, but I also believe loving your enemy is a truth. Both can be found in the Bible.

    It's one thing to believe a deity exists. It's entirely another thing to say 'I know'. The correct answer is 'I don't know'. 'I don't know' is a truth. It's even more dishonest when you enter the realm of religion when you start claiming you know the nature and personality of the deity you believe in by declaring a book says so.

    My way of processing information is a truth: I see no evidence of a deity much less this Yahweh character described in some badly written tome, therefore I have no reason to believe in it.

    That's not to say "I believe" is an untruth. But saying "I know" and "This is the nature of said deity" is untruth.
     
  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Don't blame me that you have no idea what ad hom is. Give one example of me doing an ad hom attack on you.

    The fact of the matter is that you are the one that is trying to demonize the messenger. You brain can not handle the message and since you have no coherent refutation you have to rely on demonizing the messenger and/or avoidance and or denial. When that fails you make up falsehoods about the poster so you have something to attack = strawman fallacy.
     
  7. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course I know what God is, He's our Creator and the love force that binds the world, otherwise it wouldn't exist.. If I didn't believe that I wouldn't be a Christian.

    God was revealing Himself to the Israelites and gradually pulling them away from the demons they idolized which were really self serving entities. It was a slow process.

    You shouldn't look at other times and places with todays standards. God doesn't command anything.. It's written that way because it was the only way that people could understand the consequences of their actions if they committed certain offenses. It was the Israelites that killed them and God allowed it - as God has allowed soldiers to do thousands of times to those who have turned away from His love and protection. The Catholics call it a 'cleansing'. In other words, God is cleansing a place of sinners.

    I'm not that much into studying the Bible, but I believe that someone asked Jesus why Moses didn't condemn divorce, and why He was telling them it was wrong. Jesus responded that in Moses' day and age they wouldn't have understood it. In other words, the Jews had not progressed spiritually enough to understand.

    God revealed Himself to the Jews with moral laws, and then when He felt the time was ripe, He gave the world the full revelation of Himself through His incarnated Son/Word, and showed that He consisted of pure unadulterated love. In other words true virtue is beyond morals and has to do with the ' 'heart'.
     
  8. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is evidence. The areas where the fires start has a red glow on the satellite images the night before. I saw them! There was even an area in the ocean. I betcha the water was hot.

    Anyway we're in a time of extreme seismic activity so take it into account - that is if you live in a seismic zone.
     
  9. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Having a belief - and knowing something is true - are two different things. Of course you have no way of proving that what you think God is - is true.

    You have no idea whether or not God even is a he - never mind know which God - if any- is the creator - or know the thoughts - or lack thereof - of the forces that created us. There is simply no way for you to prove that your beliefs about the nature of God are true - and you know it - unless of course God sat down with you the other day and revealed himself over Tea.

    One does not have to believe in "strange doctrines and old fables" to be a Christian. At least not according to the early Christian Church.

    http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Fiscus Judaicus.pdf
     
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You seem to have trouble dealing with reality. It is not some big secret that the "temperance movement" was a religious movement. There were Church leaders going around giving speeches to large audiences claiming that alcohol was "Satan's brew" and other nonsensical gibberish.

    The religious right are very political in relation to many issues.. be it alcohol, Pot, Prostitution, Pornography, Abortion, Gays and so on.

    I don't blame all Christians for these idiots and nor do I blame all Christians for prohibition. This does not change the fact that the religious puritans and fundamentalists were instrumental in forcing their religious beliefs on others through physical violence (Law).
     
  11. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    No good laws are the rules necessary to create a workable society. Laws that try to regulate individual behaviors that only or mostly affect the individual involved are just attempts by people to impose their moral values on others. No one should have the right to tell me I cannot smoke or drink or do drugs or get tattoos or have premarital sex or have sex with a person of my same gender. They can tell me that if I drink and drive that is wrong because I am endangering others . Or if I get someone pregnant I have a responsibility to provide for the child.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Cite please.

    If that's the case, why is PG&E not pointing at that evidence to clear themselves of the billions of dollars of damage and high number of lives they are being charged with.
     
  13. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Then is your belief in the 'nature of said deity', that is, non existence, something you 'know', or just believe?
     
  14. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because lawyers can't make money suing nature. Besides there's a battle going on between Dutchsence and the American Geological Institute - so who would verify what he says? It's become so bad that yesterday he questioned whether a deep earthquake actually struck S. America or if it was being reported falsely by the geologists to malign his reports. In the meantime he's trying to save lives.

    Anyway I think the battle with him has to do with fracking. Whenever there's a quake he pin points it on google map and it turns out to be a fracking station. That and the hurt egos of geologists for insisting earthquakes can't be predicted, and he proves them wrong every day.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, PG&E are the defense. Your argument does not work.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  16. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    That is something I believe. There is no evidence of a deity therefore it is strongly implied a deity does not exist.

    There are however certain descriptions of deities that I know are untruth because there is even less evidence of their existence and contradictions within their descriptions. Yahweh is one of them. In order for Yahweh to exist there MUST be strong evidence of the Exodus for example. As for contradictions, there are passages both in favor of and against the trinity.
     
  17. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    The argument in this case could be brought to a quick end by the Bible thumpers actually proving their claims. Instead they claim that various fairy tales have not be disproved which (to a thinking person) is not exactly proof.
     
  18. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    "There are truths in Christianity that are above our intellectual comprehension."
    Only those with a pure heart receive illumination.

    Translation: There is no actual proof.

    With all of the illumination going why hasn't God passed on the cure for cancer I have to ask?
     
  19. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    No, my problem is with dogmatic religious bigots, who belittle and demean the beliefs of others, and post pages of crackpot theories and opinions, pretending it to be Gospel Truth.
    So drug laws were all from hateful Christians, trying to control people. Restrictions on big gulps, too? 'Bible Thumpers!' :cynic: are responsible for that?

    Shall we legalize opiods, and pass them out with condoms, at schools? No laws should be there that restrict anyone's freedom to do what they want?

    Traffic laws, also a religious overreach, to control everyone?

    Who is trying to pass laws forbidding premarital sex, tattoos, or homosexuality? That is a straw man caricature. Tat yourself all you want. Bang away, nobody is coming for you.. they'll be coming on you... :roll: ..sorry..

    This is just fear mongering, to promote a caricature of 'hateful Christians!' 'Trying to control us!'

    The opposite is true. Progressives use Law to control and manipulate everyone, micromanaging every detail of their life. ..except for drugs. Leftists become very libertarian when it comes to drugs and sex. Those should be open free for alls, regardless of the consequences to society.

    It seems you do not oppose ALL laws, used to restrain people, just certain ones that you don't like. How does (or should) a society legislate their morality? Laws reflect the morality of a culture, why is a consensus of social mores 'wrong!' Is this not a moral judgement on your part, reflecting your moral values?

    So a Deity may be possible, just not the Christian God? How can you exclude that possibility? How does any alleged 'errors!' in some written manuscripts invalidate the possibility of Christianity being true? Perhaps you misunderstand, or disinformation has blocked a fair perception. Islam might be true, but not Christianity? Vishnu might be real, but not Yahweh?

    What 'argument?' This is an exposè of 'lies and caricatures of Christianity,' not a 'proof of God!', thread. The only 'argument' from the anti-christians is that these lies are true. THAT is where the burden of proof lies, on those making the accusations.

    I cannot 'prove!' God to you. That is beyond my pay scale. I can clarify biblical and historical Christian beliefs and principles, and i can refute lies and caricatures. But 'proving God!' to a skeptic is not my goal nor desire. If you wish to seek God, and spiritual Reality, i can point the Way. But providing empirical 'proof' is impossible, for any religio/philosophical belief, including atheism. Nobody can 'prove!' that, either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  20. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why would I go to any links when I have my numerous readings of Holy Books - something that started with Evangelical writings and then progressed to the fullness of Christian revelation with the lives and experiences of glorified Saints - Catholic first and then the greater depths of Orthodox spirituality. Not to mention the hundreds, if not thousands of my own personal experiences - something that would have proved the accuracy of my faith if I needed them. But then again if I did, I wouldn't have had the experiences I had. But look, this is something you wouldn't understand since we're in a different realm of comprehension.

    This doesn't mean I'm critical of the cultural limitations of the Protestant faiths, after all everyone has their own comfort factor - and I do have the highest respect for the warm heartedness, love and compassion of many Evangelicals. Everyone though does have cultural limits and shouldn't judge others through those limits.

    I know that's hard to do but I am Orthodox and we do not study or idolize the Bible. We have it in our Liturgy and in its original Greek. To us though it's only one manifestation of God's Word and Presence. Holy Tradition is the other, since it's derived from the same Fathers and Saints that compiled the Bible. You can't say they were accurate in one but not the other, and that's something Protestants tend to do.
     
  21. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    God's concern is the human soul and it's eternal life. He wants people to join Him. But if you want a cure for cancer try Saint Nektarios' intercession, he's known for it. You can get his holy oil at his monastery or at a church dedicated to him. Try it!

    On thing though, God only works miracles if He feels it's beneficial to a person's soul.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  22. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Each religion must be assessed by it's own merits. Christianity fails my test. At some point there is a threshold of so many strict conditions not being met and inconsistencies that you know it's not true. If you want a discussion on the merits of other deities, I'd be very happy to put them to the test as well.

    For example: In Hindu mythology, the age of the Universe is roughly the same as the age most scientists give. That could change in the future, but for the time being, Hinduism is one baby step closer to being true. There are other things to consider though so that's why I say one baby step.

    I'm also more open to religions that say other religions have elements of truth in them. Sikhism is one of them. In their holy book the Guru Granth Sahib, you will find texts written by Hindus and Muslims. Christianity is a religion that strictly states they are the ONLY truth. I've already acknowledged that there are some truths in Christianity but not enough for me to sit in the pews.
     
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  23. tealwings

    tealwings Well-Known Member

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    So Christianity has failed your test, but some other religions are still open for consideration? You are using human reasoning to make your choice, Similar to choosing "9 out of 10 people agree" vs bieng led by the Holy Spirit.
    I can assure you not all spirits are created equal.
     
  24. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I don't know how you came to that conclusion, I think I wrote out the full length of my argument and exactly how it relates to the post I first quoted. But very well, no particular point in going on about it.

    I think the idea of the intolerant progressive is as much of a phoney narrative as the ones you present are. It's not like either intolerant progressives or WBC don't exist, but to address progressive ideology or Christianity talking only about those groups would be a straw man.

    The only arguable difference that I can see has to do with the definition of Christian. You deploy some form of no-true-Scotsman argument which distances you from other Christian groups. I don't think it holds though, because you have made the entire definition reliant on your interpretation of Christianity, which obviously doesn't hold for anyone who holds any other interpretation (or who is able to consider more than one interpretation).

    If we disregard actual liars, I would expect most people who you call "Christian!" (but not Christian) do revere Christ and follow their own interpretation of Jesus' words. Now, they may have misinterpreted Jesus' words, or failed to access them at all, but I would argue that that doesn't matter.

    Consider my position. I am not a Christian, I try not to make a judgement on exactly what Jesus meant. Not because I don't think I could make a decent guess if I tried, but because I have to deal way more with people who have weird interpretations than I have to deal with Jesus' actual meaning. I have no basis to judge your interpretation of what a Christian is any higher than that of some other person who says you haven't interpreted Jesus' words right. As you can see, using Christian to mean "one who follows the intended meaning of Jesus' teachings" is useless in any general context, because it will mean different things depending on who says it.
     
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  25. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Any fool can sit in the peanut gallery throwing out insults and falsehoods.

    It is not my fault that you cannot handle the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels of Mark/Matt. Nor is it my fault that these teachings conflict with your man made dogma.

    Throwing a fit and going into a maniacal rage try to demonize the messenger - because your brain can not deal with the message - is not going to change the message and nor does doing this refute the message.
     
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