Honest invitation to the Leftist Liberals -- please, tell us on the Right what you REALLY want!

And what is YOUR excuse for confusing class society with classless society and your refusal to confront the facts of it as I laid out for you in #345 where I basically handed you your butt? As I proved, communism is not "pure socialism". Yet you ignore the facts. You prefer to cling to your opinions.

History? What were the conclusions in 2012 as to who/what was mostly responsible for the $20 billion fraud and rip off of Venezuela's economy?

What do documents obtained via the FOIA show about the 2002 coup against Chavez in Venezuela?

While Chavez was in jail, what was Pedro Carmona doing?

I pick on Venezuela because I know you will have a spin and a dance for anything I say about Russia. I would really rather to discuss this with calm civility and on the basis of the known facts, but you run from such an approach every time to hide in your inflexible opinions.

 

And capitalists had their politicians intercede in order to change "the capitalist system as it was initially intended" to what they preferred and needed. Complaining about that doesn't mean a return to "what was initially intended" is possible today.

Private ownership is a method of appropriating exceptional wealth and private profits, -according to the S.C.

Why would anyone want to devise a system in which failures in the effort to advance society could fall on individuals to their great detriment?

Morals and ethics also teach such things without any "need" for religion.

Please document that. Prove that socialism and stateless society are the same. Good luck.

 

Because you don't know a damn thing about Russia maybe?

All societies have classes. All. You keep referring to FICTION perpetrated by an academic's bullshit theory of bringing down successful people so that losers and jealous people are on the same playing field. Like a reset button to the stone age. Marx wrote your economic bible when people traveled by horseback! It's no different than slave reparation drivel. The entire concept of socialism is to take from the have's and give it to the have not's. Socialism leads to one big miserable class. That's what happens when you run out of other people's money.

If someone tries to take what I've built up, I will be exercising my 2nd amendment rights. I will be DAMNED if I let some moronic liberals like AOC take my net worth.

 

It is a mistake to assume that the capitalist system has an intention. It was not designed it just happened and was then described.

 

The Russian revolution was directed by the Communist Party which formed from the Bolsheviks, and both openly and frequently stated their adherence to Marxism and Marx's works. So Marx was the guide and the source of the Party's definition of communist society.
https://www.reference.com/history/did-karl-marx-influence-russian-revolution-fd353e084581c560
https://allpowertothesoviets.wordpr...ssian-revolution-and-the-communist-manifesto/

But you are resistant to these facts, preferring your own substitute "facts".

If you actually knew anything about the developments among socialists since the USSR fell into state capitalism, you would know that your fears are unnecessary and that there will be no uprising to seize state power in the US. But you don't know anything about it. You've proven that. And you refuse to listen for facts.

If you don't start dealing with the facts, there is no point in further discussion as I'm not interested in discussing personal fantasies and opinions.

 

The current system is socialism, and does not represent any of the capitalist ideas.

The system, I am referring to is the one that has been built up over 6,000 years of human trial an error, and research. The one described by Aristotle, Adam Smith, Christianity, and many thousands of great thinkers throughout history.

What is S.C? Can you link to the specific parts to support your claim.

So how do you deter people from doing the wrong things, without a state?

Morals and ethics is a social construct, show me where outside of religion, it tells you not to lie, cheat, steel, be faithful to your relationships?

See Engels, Frederick (1880). "Part III: Historical Materialism"
Socialism: Utopian and Scientific

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm

 

Ok you've proven that you're not up to a serious fact-based discussion. Bye.

 

So you are going chuck your head in the sand, and say nup I am right and you are wrong, goodbye. Without even a hint of reason or evidence for your position.

Good luck with that.

 

Socialism or whatever we are calling it today is clearly superior in every way to the alternatives. Doesn’t matter if it fails or nobody wants it. Reality is immaterial. It’s the way it goes. You had some great posts. Others are watching and learning.

 

Thanks. Know thy enemy.

 

Oh no you didn't pull out Frederick Engels...

Next thing you'll be doing is educating someone about Lenin and Trotsky's time in Paris before 1917.

Somebody else can teach our resident socialist what it really is and how it came about, I'm tired of hand holding myself. Be my guest.

 

I can help you if you need. The tangled web of socialism can be quite dense to in some areas, so you should never drive into the socialism labyrinth on your own. If you have any questions about socialism, please feel free to ask any questions you might have.

 

No sir, I'm not the poster who needs help. I'm solid on the history of socialism/communism. I know exactly what it is.

 

How anyone can still be enamored of a system responsible for 100 million dead in a single century (1917-2017) is frankly beyond my ability to comprehend. It's been tried by the French, the Russians, the Chinese, the Koreans, the Cubans, the Vietnamese, the Cambodians, and now the Venezuelans and every single time it has resulted in the deaths of thousands or millions of people. But still they persist in saying that wasn't "real" socialism, communism, Marxism, whatever. And what's even more amazing is that the few countries that have abandoned communism voluntarily, like China, have prospered amazingly well, and yet that still doesn't convince the "true believers" that communism is bad and capitalism good.

Some more irony for you... most of the remaining communists in the West exist almost exclusively in colleges and universities, but the first population to go on the chopping block in actual communist countries was the "elite", usually defined as anyone with a college degree. These smart people who defend communism in the West would have been some of the first ones killed.

 

Ok Ziggy. Just for you. One more time.
From the beginning, socialism has been presented and considered as the antidote or remedy for the "wage slavery" of capitalism. It has always been seen as or indicated as the means of liberating the working class from the clutches of the capitalist class. I'm sure you know this.

As such, it ends the essence of capitalism, which is private ownership of productive capacity for private profit. So while capitalism employs workers who are hired by business owners for their profit and who provide the workers with no meaningful participation in actually running the business, socialism does the opposite. It eliminates private ownership for private profit and makes the workers the owners who run the businesses democratically.

So it's simple. Capitalism is an economic system in which there is private ownership for private profit, and socialism is worker democratic ownership and control for collective benefit.

Hence, we still have capitalism. The introduction of socially beneficial policies to ease the workers' burden does not comprise socialist economy. It's a capitalist economy with social reforms and it buys more time for capitalism.

 

99.9% of the population also believed Pluto was a frozen, inert, barren iceball in 2016. You are suggesting that the 0.1% who suspected a different reality were wrong.

 

Yeah, I have read this story a lot of times, the Bible represents this as the Kane and Abel story.

Do you know anything at about how corporations are currently run? Do you know that shareholders have a fiduciary responsibility (enforceable by law, and carries a jail term if convicted?) to do what's best for the organisation and its workers? Do you know that the Board of Directors is democratically elected at an AGM by the companies shareholders? Shareholders were the ones who normally work in the business or helped work in the business, built the business from scratch? Do you know that a corporation is not owned by a private individual, but by a collective of its shareholders? Do you know that a corporation is run to benefit the shareholders as a collective? Do you know shareholders are (often through retirement saving firms) the mums and dads who work 40 to 50 hours a week in other jobs?

How is this different to how socialist want organizations to run? Please inform me, because I am at a loss here to how socialism is any different to what we have currently.

Or am I not thinking fourth dimensionally?

 

Jamal Khashooggi was a peice of shyt
but covering up for world leader oligarchs with "maybe he did maybe he didn't" is just npot congruent with global rule of law

are you ready to be congruent with global rule of law?? Or will you just be an iostrich with your head in the sand and say "I accept totaliarism because it is unchangeable??

You know.. the internet gives power to the common man

That is why Xi Jinping hates google

 

anyone who doesn't suspect a different reality is wrong

 

Honest invitation to Trump Supporters

Prove to me there is not an anti intelligence quotient with a negative quantitative evaluation???

I will not post orange memes out of respect for you

 

Yeah ok.

As a shareholder, I get notified of voting and are asked to vote on various things from Board members to corporate plans. I'm not required by anyone to vote, but my participation begins and ends with my vote. So I have no idea what the hell you're talking about with "fiduciary responsibility (enforceable by law, and carries a jail term if convicted?) to do what's best for the organisation and its workers". In fact, I deny it's true since I've never been required to do anything. I call it BS.

As I just said.

Did you ever hear of an "IPO"?

It still isn't owned by the workers or the general public. The real reason for a corporation to sell shares is to raids operational funds. Once the corporation sells the Issued Shares from the Treasury, trading shares in the stock market only affects the corporation to the extent that the officers participate in the stock market. The corporation, then, is privately owned and controlled, mainly by "insiders" who hold the majority voting shares.

I know it is run for a financial benefit of the major share holders and is run by them. That means "insiders".

Listen fella, I was a financial planner for a while. I had a Series 6 securities license and a life insurance license so I could sell mutual funds and annuities. Being so licensed requires taking a course and passing a test. So I know a bit about all this. For example, I know that most 401-k plans are managed, so the 401-k participant doesn't know the specific stocks in his retirement plan in that case. And the fund managers vote the shares by proxy, giving the shares' voting rights to the corporate elite to vote as they think best. Because of this, most people with retirement plans never vote their shares, themselves. And so statistically and on average, 60% of stock shares are voted by the corporate elite.

I just laid it out for you. But I'll add this: socialism today is advancing via worker co-ops. And worker co-ops with few or no exceptions, are organized via the Articles of Incorporation and the Bylaws such that it is specified that worker ownership is by share ownership, and each worker-owner may own only one share, giving each worker one vote. Also, if a worker is hired without buying a share but then decides to buy a share, s/he must buy it from the co-op, and if s/he later decides to sell that share, s/he can only sell it back to the co-op. There is no secondary market for the shares. Also, normally Board members and the CEO cannot own shares, or they may own just one each. And Board members and the CEO are hired and fired by the workers.

Any questions?

 

Oh really? I own about 15% of a publicly traded company. I'm not an insider either.

Tell me, how long does a socialist financial planner stay in business? That's like an oxymoron.

 

And 15% does not comprise a controlling share. LOL!!!

That would depend on how they operate and how good they are. Hey, in my last job from which I retired in 2007 I was a software developer for a corporation. How long do you think a socialist software developer would stay in business working for a corporation? Have fun with that one too.

 

A ton, but we will start off with a couple and work our way through.

Tell me which state the corporation is registered in, and I can point to the specific legislation detailing my claim.

Most of the time the responsibilities of the shareholder or board member is within the corporation's constitution and bylaws and usually details the consequences.

Yes.

But it is owned by the general public and the workers. Its just the part of the population that have an interest in the success of the corporation that own the organization.

Should someone with absolutely no knowledge in the running of the business, have an equal vote in how that business is run, compared to those who devote their lives to its success on a daily basis?

Aren't co-ops privately owned? So how is that really socialism, given your prior definition?

I'll ask more questions as we go on. Those last 3 statements of yours are very contradictory.

 

LOL!!! You think they're the same!!!