The Bible

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by usfan, Oct 2, 2018.

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  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) I can not help you further if you can not figure out that "Sola Fide" is Christian dogma - I will use the term doctrine since it is more specific if it makes you feel better.
    2) This is not about what you think "many Christians believe" ... this is about Sola Fide doctrine and what it means. Lots of Christians do not believe in the death penalty for Gays but that does not change the fact that this is a rule from God.

    The doctrine of Sola Fide is such that only those that have "faith" will go to heaven. If you can not figure out that this precludes babies ... I can not help you further.

    3) Punishment has everything to slaughtering and death as this was the punishment God levied on children for the sins of their parents.

    I can not dumb it down any further for you.

    I asked you if you agreed with this and you said no. Then you turned around and claimed not to be disagreeing with the rules of the genocidal maniac God that you have claimed is your God.

    4) I would hope that it would be difficult for you to deal with the fact that your God contradicts himself. The other passages you refer to have nothing to do with your God being a contradictory flip flopper - A God who one day says kids are not to be killed for the sins of their parents and then the next day orders slaughter of children - because of the sins of their parents.

    There is a way out of this dilemma but, it requires rational thought.
     
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  2. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    It seems that so-called Christians never read their favorite ethnocentric Middle Eastern Jewish religious fairy tale and are therefore ignorant about what is in it. They just want to go to heaven but there is no heaven for them to go to.
     
  3. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    You have failed to explain what you think Ezekiel 9:3-7 has to do with the hearing of the word. You have also failed to explain where Matthew 24:19 mentions destruction. Good job.
     
  4. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Alright, but are YOUR beliefs also Christian Dogma?

    Sure, it needs to be in those terms for the sake of simplicity, but any sensible person applies logic to it.
    Most Christians would say that they can't believe that God would condemn babies to eternal damnation, but like you said, we don't know! I agree.

    When did I say that it wasn't to do with slaughtering?

    Yeah, I assumed that you were asking me if we should kill children for the sins of their parents TODAY. Were you not?

    Don't you realise that they were the passages that YOU mentioned in order to show that God is a "contradictory flip flopper?" I was just noting that they all have idolatry in common.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your response to this:

    3) Deuteronomy 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

    Exodus 20:5-6 (also Dt 5:9) I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    Then there is the numerous times when God commands the Israelite's to kill whole towns on the basis of the sins of their parents.

    Deuteronomy 13

    12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.

    Was cherry picking Deut 24:16 out of the post to which you responded "What does this have to do with slaughtering " as if what followed Deut 24:16 did not exist.

    It is like your brain checked out of the room.
     
  6. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, AFTER I pulled you up on it, AFTER you originally dodged it. Are you saying that you didn't originally dodge it?

    Do you think that Christians ALWAYS do "the will of the Father?" Do you believe that you do "the will of the Father" and are therefore saved?

    Correct.

    Strong. Why?
     
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  7. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying this? It sort of looks out of place within your post and going by your other posts, you don't seem to believe that they are reliable, but I'm sure that you can clarify.

    What is "the REAL Bible?"
     
  8. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You say this - as if you have no clue that the "Will of the Father" in the Sermon on the Mount - is based on works - not faith.
    This is a mindless comment - a desperate attempt to avoid reality. Which works given in the Sermon do you suggest are not the "Will of the Father" ? .. and what part of " Only those who do the will of the Father" do you not understand ?

    Then - after I say:
    You respond "Correct" So first you try to claim that works are not the "Will of the Father" .. but, now you agree that the "Will of the Father" is works.

    You do know if you are coming or going ? Anyways - glad you seem to be finally understanding that the salvation formulation of the Jesus of Mark/Matt - is works.

    So you are "Strong in Spirit" Good answer - I believe you. We have been talking about how one makes it through the pearly gates according to the Jesus of Mark/Matt.

    It is kind of ironic that we have been talking all this time about the Sermon on the mount yet you did not catch why I asked this question !?

    The first thing Jesus says in this sermon is " Blessed are the poor in Spirit - for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven"
     
  9. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    You said that even if it wasn't the case that Orthodox and Catholic outnumbered Protestant, "it would still be a significant number of Christians." Would 20% be significant? How low would it have to go in order for it to not the be a "significant number?"

    Actually, I thought that "works alone" is what you were saying Jesus was talking about. I was mistaken.

    And the other question is whether or not FAITH is a requirement at all. What do you make of Matthew 9:2?
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not sure what Trevor will have to say but, here you ask an interesting question. "What is the REAL Bible" ?

    Should the Epistle of Barnabas and Shepherd of Hermes be in the Bible ? .. it was in first Bibles. Was this the real Bible ?
    There are books in the Catholic Bible that are not in the Protestant Bible ... which is the real one.

    There were many Bibles that did not contain the long ending of Mark. It is now accepted that the long ending was not originally there. Are all the versions of the Bible containing these forged passages then "not the REAL Bible" ?

    What about the various books that are not in the Bible - Gospel of Thomas for example ? and a bunch of others.

    Pious Fraud was the Rule in the first century - second, third fourth and so on. It was justified on the basis of "If it brings more people into the fold".

    Even the books they managed to keep contradict each other - talking the new testament - never mind the Old. The various Bible Authors can not even get the last words of Jesus straight ?

    None of the authors were eyewitnesses .. the closest we get is the author of Mark who was "reputedly" an interpreter of Peter. We know almost nothing about the disciples after the death of Jesus. Odd that this Author who knew Peter tells us nothing about the life and times of the disciples after the death of Jesus.

    The author of Matt is shrouded in mystery. This fellow used almost all of Mark - leaving out a only a few verses but the ones he left out were the verses he thought were derogatory to Jesus and the Disciples. Artistic license ? - Pious Fraud.

    Over time - the story of Jesus changed and story got bigger with each retelling. There was Jesus - and then there was the picture of Jesus that the storytellers wanted to present. As dogma changed - so did Jesus.

    The history of the NT is a history of overzealous scribes altering, editing, omitting, interpolating - in order to make Jesus fit into the dogma of the day. The same is true of the OT - except for different dogma.

    So yeah - what on earth is the real Bible. What is the real Jesus ?

    Given the above - (and I am just getting started) I still think it is possible to tease some of the Real Jesus out of the text. Blindly following orthodoxy/Doctrine however, is not going to be of much help.
     
  11. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am not going to get into a semantic's discussion of what % is significant. You have completely lost the context of the original conversation.

    What do I think in reference to what ? What do you mean by "Faith" ? Faith in What ? Faith in God. Faith in Jesus ? Faith in the idea that Jesus is the son of God, Faith that Jesus is the Logos, Faith in the teachings of Jesus or -

    Faith in the idea that the sacrifice of Jesus wipes the slate clean and all we have to do is believe this and we will make it through the pearly gates ? aka Sola Fide.


    Sola Fide is obviously not the faith that Jesus is referring to because he had not yet died - this also applies to the various other passages you quoted in relation to faith healing. This is not Sola Fide.
     
  12. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I should have placed a question mark. And the gospels are reliable?

    The REAL BIBLE? It's the same book you read but with the understanding of the times, culture, history and religion upon which it is written. If you study the OT virtually everything that Jesus does and says is related to Jewish beliefs. Gospels writers simply add their own perspective. The Book of Revelation (except 1-3) is simply parts/images/scenes taken from the OT Prophets and Jesus added. The Essenes did the same thing, and added their own ideas. (That was before the Biblical Revelations.

    The Baptism of Jesus was acceptable by the Jews - witness the crowds being baptised (according to scripture) and the supposed temptation, (with the dove added). Many of his parables were taken from the OT. That's why he told his disciples that he spoke in these parables - because they, as Jews, would understand, while Gentiles would not. The Beatitudes are found in the OT scriptures. His actions, acceptance of the LAW - 10 commandments

    The 10 commandments are simply an adaptation of 'laws' found in earlier ancient codes. These all attribute their laws to their particular god - as does the Jewish first commandment - to give them authority

    Jesus was Jewish teacher who lived as a Jew, taught as a Jewish teacher and practised Jewish ritual. He ignored the practices that had nothing to do with worship, and some that had, but were irrelevant to humanity. For example - the donkey in the ditch. The good Samaritan, etc.

    Proven history denies the possibility of the Biblical story of Abraham, the story of Moses and the Exodus.

    These things are not preached from the pulpit
     
  13. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    You keep making the classic mistake when referring to the Ten Commandments. You are thinking about the fake ones and not the real ones which are found in Exodus chapter 34. The real ones are the basis for all of the stories in the Bible. The fake ones from Exodus chapter 20 and Deuteronomy chapter 5 have nothing to do with the biblical stories.
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    More explanation por favor - and a link would be good if available.
     
  15. tealwings

    tealwings Well-Known Member

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    Im not sure why you have such a problem with this, Sola Fide was about bringing Christianity back to Christ and cutting out religious red tape. Justification was not understood to be freely offered by God in Jesus Christ but instead, was something that had to be earned. If you had doubts that your loved one earned a sufficient amount of it prior to death, you could pay the priest and other church higher ups to seek God’s indulgence on their behalf after death. This robbed not only the people of their money but the Catholic Church of its moral authority.
    to know the depravity of Sin, We stand there on feet of faith alone. No one needs the intervention of any church leader to do this. Hence Sola Fide.

    It is by faith...
    faith in the historical reality of Christ on the Cross
    it is by faith...
    that I accept the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, which enables me to receive and respond to the Bible as the Word of God & willingly cooperate with the Spirit in sanctification which is continual and
    ... a work of grace by faith.




     
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  16. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Weird stuff happens when people think they can understand Judaism based on various Christian (mis)translations of Hebrew or Aramaic texts. If you wish to know what the Ten Commandments are, ask a Hebrew speaking Jew.

    This is from Exodus 34 New International Version:
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+34&version=NIV

    This is the accurate translation from the original:
    https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0234.htm

    The Ten Commandments are found in Exodus 20. Exodus 34 is the covenant between God and the Hebrews, not a code of law, rather a contract. As long as Jews keep the covenant, God will (allegedly) protect them.

    Now you know.
     
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  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are a number of reasons why I personally reject Sola Fide "salvation by faith alone". The first is because I do not think God is irrational. I do not buy the idea that God would give entrance to someone who had done the most unspeakable evil - yet - in their last breath confessed to "Believe" while closing the door to someone who had done good their whole life - and yet because this person lived in China in the 2cnd century - and so had never heard of Jesus. Or even if this person had heard of the stories of Christianity - did not delve much into these stories due to being raised under a different religious belief.

    Then there is the problem with vanity/jealousy. Do you seriously believe that an all knowing - all powerful - eternal God is so vein or jealous that they would condemn someone to eternal torture simply on the basis of a mistake ? - not believing some story they heard about someone claiming to be the Son of a God ? - at a time when there are all kinds of people making the same claim ?

    This would mean that heaven would be filled with - while perhaps not stupid - certainly not the sharpest of tools - not having the capability to figure this out or ... running around like blind sheep not using the Brain that God gave them - which brings me to my third point.

    What would be the point of God giving human's a brain - if his main desire for these humans was to not use that brain. Faith - by definition is belief in something without evidence of proof. It is an appeal to shut one's brain off.

    Then there are no personal reasons such as the fact that Jesus contradicts sola fide - and did his Brother James (and by inference the rest of the disciples). Then there is the problem that not even Paul directly states "faith alone" and he also speaks of works as a requirement.

    Given the above - why on earth would I believe in Luther's doctrine ? PS - I was raised in a very religious "Lutheran" home.
     
  18. help3434

    help3434 Member

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    If 3 is true then God did a really bad job with 2. Why is God so incompetent?
     
  19. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Do you think that Christians ALWAYS do "the will of the Father?" Do you believe that you do "the will of the Father" and are therefore saved?
     
  20. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Why would it mean that God is incompetent?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  21. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    As I have pointed out numerous times you can read it for yourself, which is the best option.

    Simply get a pen and some blank sheets of paper. Start reading at Exodus chapter 19 verse 1 and continue all the way through Exodus chapter 34. As you read summarize what you have read in your own words every few verses. You will realize that Moses went up and down the mountain more times than a goat. You will also realize that the verses in Exodus chapter 20 were verbal, and never written on the stone tablets or called the Ten Commandments. You will get to Exodus 31:18 before Moses get stone tablets.

    a 9:40 minute video
    That is pure BS. The laws in Exodus chapter 20 were never called the Ten Commandments and they were never written on stone tablets. They were verbal commands.

    The actual Ten Commandments found in Exodus chapter 34: 11-28 are the basis for all of the biblical stories. The miracles are based on Exodus 34:10. Every story in the Bible illustrates one or more or the Ten Commandments found in Exodus chapter 34. They are highly ethnocentric which is why people push the lie about the ones in Exodus chapter 20 or Deuteronomy chapter 5 being the Ten Commandments. The ones in Deuteronomy chapter 5 were written on stone tablets but they are not called the Ten Commandments. That is reserved for the ones in Exodus chapter 34.

    I doubt a dummy in the Bible Belt would go around yelling about how he loves the real ethnocentric Ten Commandments found in Exodus chapter 34.



    If you don't believe me then read the fairy tale yourself, starting with Exodus chapter 19. Take notes about what you read every few verses. By the time you finish Exodus chapter 34 you should have learned something about the fairy tale instead of the BS that you see in the movies or what a lying preacher has told you.

    If you don't know what the real Ten Commandments are then you will never understand any of the biblical stories.
     
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  22. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why should the 10 commandments have to have been written down? Isn't that like saying that every order given by an employer has to be written down to be effective. As far as I can see Moses Chiselled out 2 stone tablets with the words from the first tablets to replace the ones he had broken - as told to by God - THEN he went up into the mountain and God gave him a more detailed account. The 10 commandments stand in Exodus 20. The Covenant is in 34:27 'Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel'. . Seems clear enough to me - and to the Jews. And they are the people concerned. I doubt they care how you interpret it.
    Ethnocentric? All the OT is ethnocentric. It was written for the Hebrews alone.
     
  23. help3434

    help3434 Member

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    Because 2 failed was corrupted very quickly. How is that not incompetent? How does something created in perfection by someone perfect in a universe created by this perfect being not stay perfect? It makes no sense.
     
  24. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Time for me to take a break. Its tough enough, being outnumbered by hostile, anti-christian bigots, without having to deal with biased mods. If i explain to a poster why i am avoiding them.. because of needling, provocation, constant ad hom & straw men, and they report me and my posts are deleted or myself infracted, why should i contribute in such a forum?

    It shows the depths of bias and hostility we have descended to, in the public discourse. Common sense, reason, and civility take a back seat to agenda driven propaganda.

    If the mods here do not want or appreciate my perspective, i can pick up my toys and leave. I know this is a predominantly progressive forum, just like most human institutions now. But if minority opinions are censored, or minority posters hindered, all that will be left is a progressive echo chamber.

    I have offered thoughtful, intelligent, provocative threads and themes, and most of my threads continue for years. But if they upset the desired narrative, you can censor me, and become an exclusive propaganda voice for the religion of Progressivism
     
  25. tealwings

    tealwings Well-Known Member

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    .........Its not about believing in Luther's doctrine, its understanding the events that led up to it and then including that into the larger picture.
     
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