Some wonder about my church. The latter day Saints LDS

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Robert, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you at all familiar with the historical record of that "youthful man" who formed your church? The truth will always set one free, or some such.
     
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  2. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes Sir. I definitely know.
     
  3. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    .
    This is about the LDS and life for the early members who suffered enormously.

    1. I did not comment on women's looks.

    Folks the women had a serious problem. First people who lived where our founders lived resented Joseph Smith. Why is that?
    Smith at age 14 had his first vision. I want you to be in his place. He had a vision he did not seek begin to kindly lecture him. He was a young boy. He had experienced other churches. He spent some years preparing himself for more direction. When he was more mature, such direction came to him. Things he said and did of course should not be believed or disbelieved solely on his word. So adults worked with him and as a team they created the book of Mormon. Witnesses testified they saw the gold plates. I was not there. The church has never shown me the plates. I made a choice many years ago that what the content of the Book of mormon is excellent. So i could fuss that I never witnessed the Jews old testament or the New Testament of Jesus and hound others over that and of course lash out at those accepting the Book or mormon or i could relax my guns and see over time what I should do. i chose to accept all three books.

    You can imagine how people who would burn others at a stake took Smith. They collected money at their churches and feared Smith would hurt them financially. Imagine him later being locked up and in jail and they came for him and shot and killed him. Were they right to blow past law enforcement to execute a man who had not harmed them?

    So they kept moving. Smith spent time locked up in a jail no larger than a 2 car garage and not given proper clothing to shelter him from very cold weather. People were ugly to him. They had no just reason to lash out so hatefully. I see polsters still lash out at him in despicable fashion today.

    I have read actual letters kept by my family written in the mid 1800s that are tragic. Mormons being shelled by cannon ball. Think Sumter was a bad deal for the small army inside? Try having no shelter from cannonballs. Women wearing aprons rushed into the teeth of the fire to gather hot cannonballs. I read their sad letters myself. My family happens to keep up our family history.

    I want you to walk from Nauvoo Illinois in decent weather all the way to where Salt Lake City is. Can you google the map to figure out the miles they walked?

    Put yourself in their place and click the pedestrian box for google maps. See for yourself.

    Men had to hunt for meat. On a trip like that, you can't carry fresh food for a long time. If somebody located plant matter to eat, it did not last long.

    When your diet is poor, you get weaker. Men did the more dangerous tasks. So men were dying on the trip.

    If they got attacked by native tribes, they lost more men and more women and children.

    The deal with polygamy is Smith had but one wife. Stories he had multiple wives are lies. Brigham Young managed to bring them to the Utah territory. Brigham had to deal with widows with children who had no male to do the harder work. Not all women are superwoman. A lot of them were weaker from the arduous trip and it was decided they needed males to help them survive. If you never have been to Salt Lake City, you may not be aware it is on rather flat desert and the city border is in the Wasatch mountains which are part of the Rocky mountains. Take Denver, you travel from a flat river area, at St. Louis Mo and slowly gain altitude. East of Salt Lake City is Wyoming. If you do not understand Wyoming, you lack understand of women and children walking over that desert land for thousands of miles. Most of Americans would crap out if they had to walk 10 miles in one day. Those females and children had to be tough just to walk that far in lousy conditions.

    Not for sex, but to protect the remaining women and their children, Young married some of them. Was he getting sex? I don't think he told anybody. But he married widows with children. Were they beautiful women? Gee probably not. A few of course may have been pretty.

    So he gets to where Salt Lake City now is but he is at a very large Desert. At an altitude of about 4,000 feet. Salt Lake City and Denver are high altitude cities compared to say St. Louis which is at river level on the Mississippi.

    So to blame Young and other males for marrying widows makes no sense. Women had to live in some place. Men can construct a log house. Try finding logs in a desert.

    They had to log trees back up in the nearby mountains. And drag them to where Salt Lake City now is.

    So polygamy was not evil. Then the government did not rule over marriage. It was legal to marry more than one woman. It was around 1889 that congress made a marriage law. So the Men in our church had to give up protecting the women and children. At least legally that is what the congress wanted from them. Naturally a man will not simply walk away from the family unit.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  4. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    Nope, Robert, you have been sold a bill of goods. Let's stay with facts.

    It was not legal in IL or MO or NY or OH in the 1830s and 1840s to marry bigamously.

    I think the first Utah territorial legislature made monogamy the law of Utah, since the Church would not admit openly until 1852 that its members practiced bigamy/polygamy, and the U.S. Congress made it illegal in 1862.
     
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  5. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Note: A book I read stated that Joseph Smiths wife stated after his death that she was his only wife, that stories he had other wives were completely false.

    https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  6. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    I have read The Book of Mormon cover to cover. From what I'm reading on the thread posts, you consider harsh criticism of the text an insult to the religion and believers. But the fact remains that I HAVE read it and am even more unimpressed than when I read the Bible.

    I asked the same question to those who put the Bible on a pedestal and I'll ask you the same of the Book of Mormon: Why is God a bad writer? If he is all powerful, his words would make me fall to my knees and worship. I feel no such urge.

    Oh that's right; the Holy Spirit! You can acknowledge the beauty of the text because you want it to be so.
     
  7. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why oh why do those holding fast to the discredited views of our Democrats, or if the allege they do not support --- talk the same way as Democrats want to blast three books so much?
    1. Jews holy book
    2. Book about Jesus, holy book
    3. Book about Mormon and other tribes holy book?

    How are you being harmed by said books?

    Do you also blame the Muslim's books? Do you question them about a God that wants war?

    I have nothing to say about GOD as a writer.

    I do not share your view on that score. I believe all holy books are written by men. God is supposed to be represented, but by male authors of said books

    I would stay off your knees unless you are a homosexual who finds himself craving the goodies of another man.

    Some may find harm in the words said by Martin Luther King and not believe in him. But I do not appreciate people acting like God told him what to say.
     
  8. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What is your connect to my church?
     
  9. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have spoken to a few people from your part of the world. A good many in my opinion, reject GOD. I had no idea that rejection extended to my Church. I personally belong to the church that only accepted a corrected Bible. Living a life being resentful of ones parents is no way to ever get close to the family. My comments about Democrats won't mean much to you. But unless a person states different, they to me are either a republican or democrat. Those outside this country of course don't need to be either party.
     
  10. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    I only answered your questions. My connection? Funny you should ask. Here's my story:

    I am a reader of religious texts only because religious beliefs fascinate me. I wanted to obtain a copy of The Book of Mormon for the purpose of study. I did not want to ask directly from the church website because I did not want the missionaries showing up at my doorstep. While the book is free, the catch is I need to sit for 45 minutes as the missionaries try to convince me to convert. That would not even be the end of it. I'd probably be harassed for about a year with junk mail consisting of magazines, tracts and requests for followup visits.

    So I came up with a solution: I had my ex wife go to the mission office in my country and ask to BUY a book from them. She still had to sit and chat with the elder missionary leader for half an hour. They gave her two copies of the Book of Mormon. One for me and one for her. They also gave her a magazine, a brochure and a kid's game book. They poked and prodded for contact information from her. I told her that whatever you do, do NOT give them any contact information. In the end she gave a cell phone number she does not use anymore. Then she left and shared her experience with me at home.
     
  11. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can imagine a lot of others also doing what you did.

    While our missionaries will try to inform others, if you do not want them around, they are taken as a nuisance.

    Still it would be a very rare person able to follow all of the church teachings on his own to truly understand us. I have often challenged other members and found they very willing to try to complete the circle for me so I recover from misunderstandings.

    After all, one does not simply issue books to students with no teaching if one intends to get an excellent education. One makes contact with teachers to assist students gain wisdom.

    That is how I see this.
     
  12. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A cult extremely exploitive of women. Bigamy was the rule until the U'S. Army convinced leaders to have a "new" vision.
     
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  13. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    There are some groups that distribute Bibles without sermons. Not too many but they do exist. Also I happen to enjoy my independent research. If I were a student in school, I would need a teacher. If it is just to broaden my horizons and NOT to earn a future living, then people should keep their sermons to themselves. And If I do ask a Mormon what their beliefs are, they should not make invitations for future meetings including attending a worship service. They should just answer my questions directly.

    I don't need a young man with a name tag looking over my shoulder as I read the Book of Mormon the same way I don't need a man with a clerical collar looking over my shoulder as I read the Bible.
     
  14. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The missionaries would not hover over you as you study the books. Our church is not talking to you so you earn a living. But as you say, students need teachers to broaden their outlook. Anyway, I enjoy the comrades in my church who are very kind and speak no ill of others.

    Give you an instance of a small church I once attended a few times. The pastor happened to be extremely good in discussing the Bible. The day he turned me off and I quit showing up was when he engaged in bad mouthing my church. Had he gone to my church, nobody would badmouth him or his church.

    At my age of 80, not one moment has a missionary hovered over me to talk about the Book of Mormon nor the Bible. Oh if I seek their information and ask, they will do their best.
     
  15. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    That is a personal opinion without any support at all, Robert, by you.

    You make the wildest assertions without any support.

    I
     
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  16. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First off.....I have never had anything to do with Democrats. Second, I am a follower of Jesus not a new "Temple" system that came after the veil was torn in half. Thirdly, nothing you said made sense in any way. My post stands.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
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  17. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While LDS were grooming young girls and marrying them at 14 years of age to build harems..........
     
  18. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    What a load of sexist claptrap...

    If religion makes a person make statements as completely insanely hilarious as "They want the woman's vagina to be well used and by many men. They teach a lot of sex when unmarried somenow presents the husband with a well worn out woman who suddenly quit craving many men but will be faithful to the husband.""

    ...then RUN as fast as you can from religion....


    And all that vile hate that sounds just like Jesus talking ??....but by someone who supports a "man" who screwed prostitutes while his wife was recuperating from having a baby, who claims it's OK to sexually assault women by grabbing their crotch and lusts after his own daughter.....HILARIOUS!.
     
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  19. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :applause::applause::applause:
     
  20. Zosimus

    Zosimus Member

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    If you think God's a bad writer, you should try reading some of Richard Dawkins. Yikes.
     
  21. Zosimus

    Zosimus Member

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    Up to 4, same as the Muslims.
     
  22. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Don't the muslim men get a lot more than four women in paradise as well as a herd of cute boys?

    Do you know how long it will take for just four women to churn out enough people to populate a Mormon God's world?
     
  23. Zosimus

    Zosimus Member

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    Well, I have heard that jihadist Muslims get 72 virgins. There's no word on whether they have to stay virgins.

    Similarly, I'm not aware of the gestational period for spirit children. We can't know whether it's 9 months, whether sextuplets would be born, or whether spirit children are even pro-created. If God created Adam out of the dust of the Earth and could create the seed of Abraham from stones, who knows what he could make spiritual offspring out of.
     
  24. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Unlike Yahweh, Dawkins does not demand his texts be put on a pedestal.
     
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  25. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    An online friend of mine who is a Latter day Saint
    sent me a link yesterday evening to a live Facetime discussion.......
    The content of the message was profoundly encouraging.......

    I went to another discussion and fell asleep and woke up several hours later and
    another video was playing that really blew my mind.........

    Because my online Latter day Saint friends of mine pray for others........
    especially members of other Christian denominations who at least attempt to be polite......
    their prayers are answered very powerfully because I will probably listen to all three of these youtube videos again within a day or three......

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...theory-of-m-w-p.548225/page-2#post-1070142369
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019

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