The Bible

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by usfan, Oct 2, 2018.

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  1. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    ...any differently than works alone?

    Is John 3:16 in contradiction with the teachings of Jesus?

    God! Who else?

    Do you think that "saved" means being in heaven?

    If someone doesn't do one single work in their entire life, then they aren't living by faith alone and therefore are not saved.
     
  2. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely correct!

    Do you suppose Jesus was saying that this bar is achievable?

    So after a life of crime, the thief is forgiven for saying that he deserves the cross but Jesus doesn't (hardly golden rule stuff!), but someone who prophesy's in Jesus' name, drives out demons in Jesus' name and in Jesus' name performed many miracles, DOESN'T get saved? Does that make any sense whatsoever from a works perspective?

    I don't know what I've said to make you think that I'm confused on what "works" is. I agree that it is essentially being a good person.

    You can't say whether or not you THINK you are saved from your understanding of scripture?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  3. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    What problem?
     
  4. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Yes, God the Father and God the Son (Jesus) are one. Again, God can have no equal.
     
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) any differently than works - being a good person - as part of the salvation formulation
    2) Depends on how one interprets the passage - "Believes on Him" could easily mean belief in the teachings of Jesus
    3) "God! Who else" - as per John it could be faith in Jesus - "Faith in God alone" as a salvation formulation would then contradict both John 3:16 and the salvation formulation of the Jesus of the Sermon on the mount.

    4) As stated previously - this is gibberish. The term "saved" as used by fundamentalist Christians implies that one is already saved = has got a pass into heaven. Your comment "does one have to be saved in order to be saved/get into heaven" is equally nonsensical. Its like saying - does one have to walk through the door in order to walk through the door.

    5) Having "Faith in God - Faith that God exists" and doing what one figures is the will of God (works) are two different things - despite your desperate attempt to conflate the two and certainly with respect to Sola Fide = "Faith Alone" = no works required.

    You are contradicting yourself left right and center today.
     
  6. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    How would "Faith in God alone" contradict John 3:16? Is there a 'work' stated in John 3:16?

    Not only implied, this is what we believe. How do you use the term "saved?" Do you have ANY understanding of it?

    It wasn't a comment, it was a question! And your quote wasn't a direct quote of my question, but rather a nonsensical sounding version! My question was actually, "do you think that "saved" means being in heaven?"

    Having faith in God makes us WANT TO DO the will of God!

    Yes, no works required, but this doesn't mean that no works will come from Faith.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  7. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    I see that you still don't know what the real Ten Commandments are.

    This is the first time I have ever seen anyone try to sell the Ten Commandments are the "Ten Utterances". That deserves the BS Award of the Decade.

    BTW, the original Bible was written in Latin by a committee of story tellers, writers, and artists in England. Any Greek or Hebrew Bibles are translations and not originals.
     
  8. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then, of course, we have the Spirit. That make 3? or 1 in 3? Or 3 in 1?

    And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'

    Was God talking to himself? ,Or Jesus? Or the Spirit?

    Trinity's are found in earlier beliefs. Nothing unusual about the Christian doctrine.
     
  9. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Yes of course. I didn't mention the spirit simply because we were talking about God the son and God the Father.

    Are you sure that quoted that piece of scripture accurately?

    Name just one.
     
  10. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree with most of your post.

    2 points. While the 613 'commandments' may be 'mandatory' to some sections of modern Judaistic 'sects' I don't think all. Anyway,, the destruction of the Temple surely put an end to some. And before the destruction of the Temple - and thus the Saduccees - I don't think they went along with all these, but stick by the original laws - commandments.

    The 'ten utterances' I thought were the letters that formed creation though the Zohar associates the two 10 utterances and 10 commandments) in complicated ways. It was even contended that if the Torah were ever to go out of existence, then the letters would also go out of existence everything would return to its original state. But then I'm not Jewish.
     
  11. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Translation of the Hebrew.

    Zoroaster.
     
  12. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    You are missing its good points. It helps define a moral base that helps keep the peace in society, for instance. It provides potential answers to mysteries that were appropriate for people of the time in which it was written. It has no fairy tales. It has stories designed to teach moral lessons. It conflicts with modern science, not the science of the time in which it was written. Its purpose is not to prove anything. You know that. If you want claims without proof, you will probably do better with this forum. I view the bible as a piece of literature that has done more good for humanity than bad and I'm not even slightly religious.
     
  13. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    What about the Hebrew translation? And what is "Zoroaster?"
     
  14. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you serious? Genesis was written in ancient Hebrew. What I posted was a translation from that Hebrew.

    Zoroaster was the founder of the Babylonian religion at the time of the Exile of the Hebrews. It is where Judaism got its Monotheism from. Before the Exile the Jews had many gods. After the exile the Priesthood took over from the kings, and ruled under the God - Yahweh - the son of El. (See the Ugarit Pantheon from which Yahweh came) .

    Followers of Ahura Mazda, the supreme God, were to follow Truth,(Jesus) of which Ahura Mazda was the father. It was Ahura Mazda who was the supreme being, the creator of all things, the bringer of all good and life. He was also the father of Good Mind and Right Mind (Spirit)
     
  15. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree with what you say. Certainly there are a lot of lessons about morality and life in general to be learned from the Bible. My real issue is with people who claim every word in the Bible is a result of divine inspiration and not written by humans.
     
  16. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    It is their belief. Why do you care what other people believe? What you believe is what should matter to you.
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What do you mean "have any understanding of (Saved) " ?? I just explained what it means to Fundamentalists in the post you are responding to. Do you disagree with that explanation ? This is what I mean by "Painful" You do this a lot.

    "It is what we believe" - Just because some one believes they are saved - does not make it true. The whole point of this conversation is how does one get saved according to Jesus.

    Believing that you are saved - does not mean that you are saved. Jesus himself echo's this in Matt 7:21 "Not all those that call out Lord Lord make it through the pearly gates".

    Do you think the people Jesus is referring to do not believe they are saved ? - the people prophesying and casting out demons in the name of Jesus ? This would be blindness on steroids - it is so obvious that is akin to "water is wet" or saying the "Sun is bright".

    Have you never watched the televangelists or gone to a church where people are speaking in tongues ? Some of these people are prophesying and/or doing faith healing and.or casting out demons. In the next breath they are talking about salvation. Obviously these people think they are saved. It goes hand in hand.

    Even the ones that are not doing the really extreme stuff - such as casting out demons - never cease calling out Lord Lord "Jesus Jesus" and then in the next breath are talking about their belief that they are saved. The two go hand in hand .. they are one in the same.

    So once again - are you seriously going to try to deny that the people Jesus is referring to- the ones calling out Lord Lord - do not believe they are saved.

    I have been thinking about this passage for decades. As stated previously - I do not believe everything in the Bible is "inspired" and the reasons for this are numerous. I do however believe that some of the things in the Bible are "inspired" - and this passage is one of them.

    One of the things that gets me about this passage - especially when read in context with the paragraph before and the one after - is that it is like Jesus is projecting into the future. He is not just speaking to the people of his time but, people in the future.

    Sure there were all kinds of zealots and fundamentalists in the day of Jesus but, how is this any different than today ? Its not.

    We have all these people loudly professing their belief. Not sure if you are familiar with "Tim Tebow". He was a Quarterback in the NFL. He would often praise Jesus and pray before the crowd after some good play - scoring a touchdown or some such thing.

    What do you think of this ? Tim truly believes he is saved .. and he calls out "Jesus Jesus" on a regular basis for all to hear. Do you believe Tim is saved because he believes he is saved and he calls out Lord Lord to all that will listen on a regular basis ?

    What do you think Jesus has to say about this. We do not have to wonder about this because Jesus was very specific in what he thought about this - and he tells us what he thinks in this same sermon .

    Matt 6
    I will stop here and respond to the rest of your post in another post.
     
  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) Faith in personage of God and Faith in personage of Jesus are not the same.
    2) Your question is dumb. If one is saved - by definition this means that one has received passage through the pearly gates. It does not mean that one is necessarily in heaven at the moment ..although those who are in heaven were obviously saved.

    So no - it does not necessarily mean being in heaven - but it could.

    3) Good that having faith makes you want to do the will of God. Not all those who believe in God do good works. Further - since many do not even know what Jesus means by "Good works" how on earth can they do good works if you do not know what they are ? Just because someone has faith in God - does not necessarily mean they know what the teachings of Jesus are with respect to the "will of the Father".

    4) Then you finish by contradicting yourself yet again. You are in complete denial of your own contradiction.

    You can not say on the one hand works are the will of the Father - and doing the will of the father gets one into heaven - and then turn around and claim "works are not required to get into heaven" .. and not be in contradiction.
     
  19. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    I use the word "issue" in the context of a discussion this being a discussion forum. I don't care personally what fairly tales someone believes in.
     
  20. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Does everything you never heard or seen deserve the BS award of the Decade?

    Learn Hebrew. Read the Torah. You'll understand that there's no such thing as Ten Commandments. Only Ten Utterances. "Commandments" is the term used in Christian Bibles only.

    Or ask a rabbi:
    https://etzion.org.il/en/structure-ten-utterances

    Ask another (UK chief) rabbi:
    Need more rabbis? Just ask.

    Origen's Hexapla, written in the third century, compares Hebrew and Greek versions of the Old Testament. The British Isles are still pagan at the time, and will remain pagan for at least another 300 years.

    The first definitive Latin Bible - Vulgata - was the work of Jerome, a priest in Bethlehem in the fourth century. British Isles still pagan.

    The first English translation of the Vulgata was indeed made in England, it's known as King's James Bilble.
     
  21. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Apparently you do.
     
  22. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Point number 1: I'm not sure, but I think reform and conservative Jews follow the 613 commandments, but interpret them - or some of them - differently. Orthodox Judaism is of course traditionalist, and it's still mainstream.

    Point number 2: yes, Kabbalah is indeed speaking of the creation as a result of ten utterances, but the term "utterances" is fairly common in the Torah (might also be translated as "words" or "statements"). According to Kabbalistic teachings there are 2,400,000 ways to understand the Torah, so let's leave it at that.
     
  23. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    When will you get it through your head that the Bible as we know it today was originally written in Latin. You can't find an original version of the fairy tale in any language before that (690 A.D.).

    When has any rabbi ever told the truth about anything? It is in their interest to continue to sell the lie to the gullible people so that they can keep their scam going.

    You need to learn some history if you are going to discuss the Bible =https://greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/index.html
     
    JET3534 likes this.
  24. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Only with respect to discussion of the subject in a discussion forum. Well except for property tax exemptions and the like for religions.
     
  25. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, a translation. When was the last edition of this translation?
     
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