Why I cannot be Christian simplified

It was spoken metaphorically. It's a King Soloman schtik.

 

I hope you like hot climates.

 

Straight to the point eh? Don't be knocking on any doors with that kind of message or you'll regret it.

 

Oh just admit it. That is the response you were looking for.

And as to your reasons?

1. “Thought crimes” dwelling on hate, greed lust ect...can have a snowball effect which can poison your spirit or lead to unwanted behavior. Pretty basic stuff.

2. You find it “objectionable”. That’s your opinion, no one is forcing you to believe or follow anything.

 

1. "poison the spirit" or leading to unwanted behavior is one thing. The idea of being punished for such thoughts (which means being set up to fail from birth) and then questioning the wisdom of this Yahweh character is another.

2. Nobody is forcing me. What about the time my mother and ex wife tried to pressure me into participating in the bread and wine ceremony and would not take no for an answer until I threatened I'd scream in church that I am there against my will? What about all those hours in Sunday school?

 

Really? Sez who?

 

I don’t see it as a heavenly conspiracy lol or set up. I interpret it as cautionary advice.

Lol please invite me to any service where you scream “I’m here against my will”.
Unless you were raised by one of those quacky little cults or truly abused I say.

 

Says the JW who had to see the homeowner answer the door in his underwear!

I actually did say that once during a worship service. It's a long story but I'll only tell it if you want me to.

 

Well, say hello to el diablo when you see him. BTW, that will be against your will also.

 

Well if seated in the pews next to me are people like you, I'm glad that I'm out for good.

 

I did some genealogy research and discovered that I come from a long line of Ammonite bastards so I can never become a member of Jealous's cult = Deuteronomy 23:2-3

 

So the way you figure it, no proposition may be subjected to critical thinking absent evidence that some aspect of it is false. Have I got that right?

 

No.

 

Nearly all religions rely on the existence of a god, there is no evidence for the existence of any such god, it requires faith to believe in such an entity. Any critical thinking or reason that is extrapolated from faith is nullified by the first premise which exists purely because of faith.
There is a god, is purely an expression of faith.

 

That's not quite what I'm saying. I see how the Bible being untrue makes it objectionable, but the arguments you presented show only why you have an emotional reaction to it. You then conclude that that makes it objectionable, but you haven't really linked your argument to your conclusion.

I can't see you having put forth an argument for your logical view.

Again, this seems to me like a description of what you like and don't like, not any good reason to actually believe it or not believe it. It's like saying "murdering lots of people is bad, so I choose not to believe in the Holocaust", you seem to have conflated objecting to its morality with objecting to its veracity.

I don't think this addresses the point I brought up.

 

Very well then. You want a more direct answer so I'll do my best to be as direct as possible, but I feel also the need to explain myself in some areas.

From a logical perspective, the Bible is objectionable because it is untrue. Noah's Ark as described in the Bible is scientifically impossible. There is no evidence that the Exodus happened and there is evidence to the contrary. Those things however do not force an emotional response.

The reason I speak of my emotional response is because Christians with their "Great Comission" and their desire to keep me in church want to appeal to me with declaring that being a Christian will make me a better person. When reading objectionable things in the Bible like the violence in the Old Testament and slavery, that brings forth an emotional response that will not appeal to my better self. I'll grant you if the Bible were 100% true, my emotions would not matter.

I was raised Christian and honestly wish it were true because that's my cultural and tribal background. The emotional thing stems from the sense of loss of something I once valued.

If the Old Testament were merely a history textbook and there was nothing for me to read over and over to meditate on, my emotional response would be but a fleeting moment. But instead, I'm told of how seriously I must take the text as it is God's words and insulted by being told that the text is actually "beautiful". Again none of this would matter if the Bible were true, but it is not.

 

Because...?

 

I don't actually want a more direct answer, my reasoning is much pettier than that. I'm merely pointing out that your argument didn't support the conclusion, which in my opinion made the entire thread moot.

There is a sound argument to be made somewhere in that area. I'm just saying that none of this was clear from the OP, yet it is crucial if I actually want to understand your argument.

 

Yes tell it, if you dont mind.

 

On the other hand.....Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus did predict that in the future........
he would speak plainly of the Father.

John 16:25 "These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father."

IF...... the being of light of near death experience fame who met with Christian Andreason is...... none other than Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his immortal post resurrection form speaking plainly of the Father..... as he promised while human............. then what he says TRUMPS the words of Paul on this topic as well as the words of Moses...........

Hierarchy of scripture....... some scriptures are obviously more important than other on a normal day........


https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/christian-andreason.html#a11

 

Chapter 10 here might just help you with this issue......

... for the record I rather admire your desire to not even attempt to be Christian if you cannot do a competent job of fulfilling what Messiah Yeshua - Jesus taught we must do....... but there seems to be more about all this than was revealed in the first century.

http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spirituality/

 

Very well. Before I tell it, there is some very important background information.

In my country: Indonesia, your religion is registered with to government. It does not matter how you worship as long as you are a monotheist and nobody monitors your church attendance. Atheism is not allowed. It stems from our national ideology called Pancasilla one tenant being belief in god. I don't have to attend church and I can confess my atheism to people I trust, but I'm not allowed to declare it to government officials or I'll go to jail.

It is for that reason that schools teach religion. Muslims, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists are segregated to their respective religion classes. I had Sunday school on a weekday except here passing it was necessary for graduation! Child indoctrination on steroids!

Anyway, on to my story: my school realized that Muslims have obligatory Friday prayers at recess time. They thought it unfair that Muslims had to worship while the Christian kids were off playing. So they came up with Friday worship for us as well. I was in high school at the time. While I wasn't an atheist at the time, I was never a fan of church worship even as a child. The female pastor was emphasizing the point about free will in one of these Friday worship services. She casually asked for a raise of hands if people are here willingly or against their will. As expected, everyone raised their hand that they are there willingly and nobody raised their hands confessing they are there against their will.

I kept my hand down and mumbled to my friends that I was there against my will. One of my friends being the a** he was called out "Madam he is here against his will!" The pastor quickly brushed that off and resumed with her sermon. Obviously I was not permitted to leave.

 

I need to clarify something: I said in an earlier post in another thread that I did not understand why the Bible was not taught in school. That was when I was in my primary school which was an international private school with international educational standards. My junior high and high school years were in another private school that mixed Indonesian standards of education with International standards. National standards include religion.

By the way, now that I've told my story, Christians, please stop trying to lecture me on free will.

 

Note to @Greenleft @The Wyrd of Gawd @it's just me @Derideo_Te ...... et al .......

This reminds me of a "cute" story I read once many, many, many years ago in Reader's Digest. Sex education was being introduced in schools, and it was introduced to children who were too young to comprehend it in at least one case. To get right to the story, it turns out that little Johnny came home from school one day and told mommy that he and Annie were going to have a baby next year. Upon inquiry by mommy, Johnny told her that he and Annie had planted some watermelon seeds down the street by a telephone pole.

The entirety of this thread is much like that with the understanding of Christianity being like the understanding of Johnny and Annie, and the debate here of words, meanings, practices, and consequences being like Johnny's friends debating with him what the necessary depth of the seeds must be, how near to the telephone pole they must be, whether a telephone pole is even necessary, and other details of the preparations for a baby that may result.

Adults would never correct Johnny and Annie's understanding of the process. They would be allowed, instead, to continue down their harmless path of error. So it is with religion. As Rinpoche Lama Yeshe said to his disciple who asked how to lead the people to realization, "let them have their prayer wheels".

The bible is not a book of instructions. It doesn't present a formula. It is not an historical rendition of facts. It is symbolic, it is allegory, and it is intended to inspire. As such it represents the ONLY external aspect of what it represents. The remainder is all within and requires an inner search and discovery.

 

I assumed you grew up in the US, were dragged to sunday school as most atheists, and as an adult yelled this out. lol

So Indonesia is a secular democratic country which also stipulates that belief be based on the one and only God (or be arrested). They also have the second? largest Muslim population in the world. I'm trying not to make Christians sound like a victim here, but the Muslim majority does regulate how many churches are built. Being arrested for non belief sounds like Muslim influence. Extremism needs to be kept in check regardless of what label/faith is attached to it.