Solar panels make hydrogen

Discussion in 'Science' started by FivepointFive, Mar 4, 2019.

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  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    It's certainly short lived!
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Today, home solar beats the price of point source petro production of electricity.

    A company called SunRun will install a complete solar system if they may share in the cost benefit. They've taken a hit somewhat recently due to their robocall marketing strategy and the resultant class action lawsuit.

    SunRun points out that their financial offer can be beaten if you do the installation yourself and take full profit from that.

    But, they're still in business.

    I'm sure there are limits related to clear access to the sun.

    ==> This is something that is actually working - NOT a design idea or "promising new technology".
     
  3. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Now factor in a 70% loss due to intrinsic inefficiency. I wasn't talking about home solar. I was talking about converting it to hydrogen.

    As for pure electric, solar cells have made fantastic strides but still aren't competitive everywhere.

    But no doubt, they have come a very long way. Soon the multiple-frequency cells will be on the market, if they're not already. The first use of these we saw was on the Mars Rovers. They have a much higher output per square foot of panel than traditional cells.

    In the long term, the Achilles heel of solar is still the lack of good storage technology. You can currently bank power on the grid, but that has a limited capacity. If everyone had solar, it wouldn't work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  4. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    Hindenburg fire lasted only 51 seconds, a typical car fires last a lot longer than that...
     
  5. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    we shouldn't expect a single magic bullet to solve all the issues...solar, wind, better batteries need to be used together with more efficient appliances and passive insulation...the technology for off the grid homes is already here, it only needs to be teamed up with green energy and efficient energy storage systems...I know there are homes near where I live that are so energy efficient they only require a small heater for winter use.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  6. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    this is where a better battery being developed MIT would come in, storing the solar energy for cloudy days
     
  7. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Green homes are really the easiest part of the problem. Industry, automobiles, large trucks, ships, and planes are a much more difficult problem.

    Battery technology still sucks. They are dangerous, expensive, toxic, and difficult to reclaim. Take for example Lithium Ion batteries. The reason the 787 had a fire, was due to Lithium batteries. And it is not preventable. Unpredictable, catastrophic failures are inherent in the technology. Who wants a stack of those in their home. Laptops and phones are bad enough.

    We don't have cost-effective, environmentally friendly, and safe storage methods for energy yet.
     
  8. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    And the battery in the electric car has to get its charge ultimately from some other source of energy -- like coal or natural gas or hydrogen combustion
     
  9. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Whoops, that isn't a fair number. 20% is lost off the top for the cracking. From there I was including the efficiency of the engine. If modified properly, apparently hydrogen for ICE is a little more efficient than gasoline, and a little less efficient then diesel.
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't accept simply calculating what it costs to produce hydrogen, because hydrogen isn't an end product - it's more like a battery.

    The OP idea of having the use adjacent to the direct production of hydrogen is an exception, but ...

    I think we have a LONG way to go before home solar overpowers the grid. What's more likely to be a grid problem is the advent of home electric car charging - and household solar is a solution for that, not a problem.

    If the objective is cutting back to some past year's co2 production in order to combat climate change, I'm not so sure storage is ever a requirement. I haven't seen an argument on that.
     
  11. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    Ideally homes will each have their own home self contained green energy system and that will also handle charging the car...

    In hindsight I wish I had bought a acreage outside my city and I'd be self sufficient now...grow my own food, solar and wind power, energy efficient home
     
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I would suggest using a different example than the Hindenburg.
     
  13. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    solar already is taking over...it takes time to convert an entire planet from coal and oil to solar, entire infrastructures need to be built...it's going to be like cell phones, first only a few people had them, then everybody had them...smart phones too, in less than ten years smart phones have come to dominate the cellular industry ...in ten years people will desperate to unload their ICE cars before they become impossible to sell on...
     
  14. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    That's a very tall order to handle the home plus the car without the concentrated energy of combustion supplying the electron flow.
     
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that.

    I haven't seen an argument showing that independence from the grid is an important objective.

    Insulation is undoubtedly the cheapest energy opportunity we have - glad to see it on your list. We shouldn't be forgetting that one.
     
  16. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    lol, maybe...but that's a myth that needs to be exposed if anyone wants to push hydrogen as a fuel source...
     
  17. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I agree that is one approach.

    Selling excess energy back to the grid requires far less investment, fewer parts and no loss related to battery charging and use. So, I think that is a valid approach, too.
     
  18. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    only if you assume we won't have technological advances to solve the problems...mankind has proven to be very resourceful when it's required ....as I've already posted passive home design has almost eliminated energy requirements for heating, those saving can be directed to charging systems or batteries...
     
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK, I think solar will grow, but I don't even SLIGHTLY accept this analogy.

    Clearly, you did not live when there were only land line phones! NOBODY who did would EVER say what you said here. The ability to call someone regardless of where they are is just plain GIGANTIC.

    By contrast, solar requires a significant investment that is paid back over time. That investment gives NO new capability at all. In fact, the additional equipment inside the home requires space and is sure to require maintenance - as every object does.
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Given the advent of home based charging of electric cars, I think it will be a while before home production of electricity is substantial enough for the average home or apartment to be off the grid.

    For a LONG time I think the average installation will more likely include solar plus grid.

    And, in that case, selling electricity back on the grid for others to use is a sound solution.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  21. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    when I was young phone calls all still went through a central operator, I even recall using one of those phones you had to crank to make a call...so yeah I'm old

    some pacific island nations are already 100% solar, if they can do it so can we...

    Costa Rica is 100% green energy

    Germany has days where 85% of it's energy needs are met by green energy

    in the city where I live our urban rail system is powered by green energy(wind and soon solar as well)

    it can be done, it just takes the will to do it...
     
  22. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK.

    I would point out that green energy doesn't mean no grid.

    Germany has a power grid, for example. And, they still will when they claim 100%.

    I think we will retain a grid forever. It's just not realistic or necessary to have all users of electricity create their own on site.
     
  23. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    it will take time, retrofitting old homes won't be easy...it would help if government gave interest free loans to retrofit older homes and legislate energy efficient building standards for new home construction...the building boom it would create in the construction industry would be a significant job creator, I know my nephew already makes millions in the US retrofitting energy system for commercial buildings, to commercial building owners it makes financial sense...

    I was in Hawaii not long ago and I was amazed at how many solar panels I saw attached to roofs, given the choice people will make the right economical and environmental decisions...
     
  24. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    some places will need a grid and others won't...redeveloping entire cities is problematic for off the grid systems but it's still something to work towards...energy grids were developed when cities were already in place I think we can un-develop them as well... where I live smaller power grids are being planned, small neighbourhoods served by their own solar, wind or geothermal sources and not relying on the city's energy grid system
     
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Amen.

    One problem I see is that local utilities are not motivated to buy back electricity from their customers. In many places, the neighborhood level of the grid simply can't do it. In some places, the local grid can accept back power from one or two homes, but not for all who are served. I think it is one or two homes per transformer.

    I see this as a significant impediment that is often being blocked for no more reason than the financial interests of the local power utility.
     

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