The Bible II

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Moi621, Feb 26, 2019.

  1. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Some greek texts are 'variants'. They do not correlate to the majority texts in common use, but there is no compelling reason to exclude them. So bible scholars put an asterisk, to indicate that there it is a variant from the majority texts.

    The variants do not change the meaning or the message of the manuscript, but are offered to 'cover all bases', since there is no absolute way to determine which one is the original. The reader can weigh the passages, and come to their own conclusion.

    Some variants have fallen into question, as more evidence becomes available. But Standard Procedure among biblical scholars is to err on the side of caution, and not dismiss a passage until evidence compels it.
     
  2. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    ..decent article on variants:

    These places where the manuscripts differ from one another are called variants. A textual variant is any place among the manuscripts in which there is variation in wording, including word order, omission or addition of words, even spelling differences.

    Most scholars put the number of variants for the New Testament at around 400,000. This is a staggering number when coupled with the fact that there are only about 138,000 words in the Greek New Testament. That means there are almost three variants per word.

    Do you feel the weight of this challenge? You should. No other document from the ancient world has this many textual variants. Yet, I believe that the New Testament is the most reliable document from antiquity. How can this be?

    When it comes to the New Testament, it’s not the number of variants that’s important, it’s the nature of the variants. It’s not the quantity of the differences; it’s the quality of the differences.

    There are four kinds of textual variants. Variants are categorized by whether or not they are viable, and whether or not they are meaningful. A variant is viable only if the variant has a good possibility of being part of the original wording. A variant is meaningful only if it changes the meaning of the text.

    source
    ..
    Most variants are trivial, affecting nothing. In fact, more than 99% fall into this category.

    There are only a small number of meaningful variants that are viable. But even these affect no cardinal doctrine. The New Testament has an impressive transmission history that should give Christians confidence that we have the words written by the apostles.
     
  3. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  4. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Tanakh is the Original Hebrew scriptures of 24 books. The Bible writers have split the 12 'minor' prophets into separate books. (That also includes that fact that Kings and Samuel have also been split into two). Most split the Tanakh into the 'Torah' (first 5 books) and the 'oral Torah' (rest of the Hebrew scriptures}.

    Deborah, Barak, Sisera and Jael. are mythical beings in a story starting with Adam through to Joshua. Written to give the Jews an origin giving the Hebrews an origin for their nation in exile in Babylon.
     
  5. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have several of the variants too, NAS McArthur Study Bible is what I am using now, my wife, Charles Stanley Life Principles Bible in NKJ Version.. but my tablet has several other variants, along with many books of commentary, dictionaries, concordances and some church history. I also enjoy historical fiction based on the Bible .. Brian Godawa's versions of "swords and sandals" being my favorites.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
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  6. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Minimally
    Accept some great battle took place threatening the Hebrew tribe
    by those usual Philistine bad guys. Bad, so very, very bad.

    and maybe even Sisera's unique end.

    Why a female Judge created for "myth"?



    I like the direct translations linked above because sometimes,
    there is an illumination. :idea:
    Such as
    NOT,
    Thou shall not kill
    BUT
    Thou shall not murder.

    Significant because you kill the enemy but murder your neighbor.

    Until I learn to translate the ancient languages,
    that's the best study I can do. ;)

    Another illumination for Moi is the significance of 1200BC
    as presented by Larry Gonick, Cartoon History of the Universe
    and how populations shifted, warred, etc.
    And the time of the Exodus, if you believe and documented Ancient Egypt turmoil.

    Any Bible Intellects on Board?
    Like Bible intersect History.
    Or principles of The Story of Ruth,
    Jael tent spiking her weary, sleeping, guest's head to the ground.
    Why make that up?

    @ToddWB enjoy :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
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  7. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    i'll find that book by Larry Gonick. I'd like to see how it correlates to "1177: the year civilization collapsed".. by Eric Cline.. which BTW does not mention anything Biblical..but had to be near the time of the Exodus.. I was looking for mention for a collapse of Egypt's military around that era.
     
  8. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    @trevorw2539 FYI

    @ToddWB


    The Larry Gonick book gave me appreciation for circa 1200BC
    Lots of stories of Ancient Egypt we know from that era compared to so much of Egypt.
    The Old Testament Bible stories.
    And those, "Sea People" ? Greek ? Philistine? and Troy too!
    The books have excellent bibliographies.

    Even it the names have been changed, there is an under current of "history" in the Bible.
    Something happened then to create so many stories.

    And Greek Civilization went "Dark". Those times known from Homer, ended.
    GWTW, or flood or somethin' .

    Maybe the beginning of the end of a Warm Period from 1500BC to 600BC
    IceAges.gif


    :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
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  9. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why not include a woman? Israel had two regnant queens in its actual history. They also wrote about Heroic women like the mythical Rahab. Sarai, Miriam in their story. Did Ruth actually exist?
    Jewish history starts around 1000BCE when a tribal King David conquered other tribes and ruled. We have evidence of that period from archaeology, ancient records on stele, artifacts, and letters between nations. Nothing before. When this story was written the scribes made errors which show the reality. They were of places, peoples and ancient events - destruction of the cities of the plain, Jericho's walls falling. etc (Jericho is in an earthquake zone and its walls have fallen more than once. An earthquake shook the region around Jericho at late as 1969 causing damage as far as Jerusalem)).- They wrote their history around these events and formed their 'heroes' stories'. No Abraham, Moses, Exodus or conquest of Palestine. Why would the Hebrews leave Egypt and head for Palestine which was ruled by the Egyptians. Out of the frying pan into the fire? If you want to know how Palestine fell - read the 'Armana' letters. You can Google them. Letters discovered at Armana which include many pleas by Egyptian rulers in Palestine cities asking Pharaoh to send military help to put down insurrection. They never got the help. Pharaoh was occupied with his army preventing the Sea Peoples taking over.. Palestine was lost to the Egyptians. That's roughly when the Hebrew history begins.


    Yes the Hebrews had enemies and fought wars during that period. Some tribes of Palestine were warlike. That's why the Assyrians defended themselves and distributed some of the 10 tribes across their Empire. And when the Southern Kingdom stupidly allied itself to Egypt, it's real masters - the Babylonians - exiled them. They were fortunate that Cyrus, the Persian, freed them and allowed all the conquered peoples to return to their own lands when he defeats the Babylonians.

    Egypt's power gradually declined from around 900 BCE.
     
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  10. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I truly wish you would break up the above paragraphs with a reference such as biblehub or wiki.


    As for Ruth, please scroll up and comment as you like to
    reply to an analysis of Ruth ala Joseph Campbell


    Was there a battle that mirrors the Deborah, Barak, Sisera and Jael too story?
    Especially the role of Deborah. A Hebrew Boudica? No, that's why she chose Barak.

    Why Invent A Deborah. Some sort of Deborah was, real I would bet.
    I Can Understand Inventing a Ruth. see aboveward. ref.: Joseph Campbell.
     
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  11. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry. There is no Bible Hub or Wiki. It's something I have studied over many decades. I started as a Christian, became a preacher and Bible teacher. I studied ancient history (Middle East), the culture and religions of the area. This proved to me that the Bible is simply a book with much wisdom, but written by man without anyone's inspiration.
    When the Babylonians took the 'southern' tribes into captivity in Babylon it was for defying the Babylonians who were ALREADY their masters. They had no real history like the Babylonians. Their history began 350 years before when the tribes I spoke about earlier (Armana letters) threw out the Egyptians.

    When the scribes in exile in Babylon wrote the stories they made mistakes.
    Try 'Abraham'. He is supposed to have bought his tomb from the Hittites at Machpelah. Well, Abraham's dates are 2100-2000BCE. This is generally accepted if you accept the Bible teaching. And it fits with the history of the time. But the Hittites are much later in history, and they never occupied the area of Machpelah.
    'Moses' says that Abraham was from 'Ur of the Chaldees'. But the Chaldeans weren't around for another 1300 years AFTER the death of 'Abraham'. Not only that how did 'Moses' know of the Chaldeans - part of the NeoBabylonian Empire - when he had been dead about 500 years. Could he see the future. The crux of this is that the scribes writing the story knew of the Chaldeans and the fact that they ruled Ur - BECAUSE IT WAS WHEN THEY WERE WRITING THE STORY THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING..The Chaldeans were ruling Ur.

    Ruth. There are 2 theories about this book.
    1. It was written close to the time.
    2. It was written at the time of the exile. There was an order that went out from the rebuilt Temple that Israel should return to the ways of Yahweh and his Law. One of those laws was that Jews must marry a Jewess, not an alien wife. Many had done so. Some Jews pointed out that David himself was descended from Moabite woman - Ruth.- so why the change. The book was written to challenge the order.

    There are many 'battles' in the Bible.which never happened prior to circa 1000BCE. There's no evidence outside the Bible for the Amalekites, supposedly the Jews worst enemies. There is no evidence for an Exodus. Canaanites were in and out of Egypt all the time. Tribesmen also used the Delta as they moved around with their flocks. The Egyptians kept a watch on them, and built 'forts' to watch for trouble or invading forces. It's all in Egyptian history. If you study the route given by the Bible it's an impossible way for 100,000 people to walk. It's impossible for such a number to survive- even with miracles. And the marching orders and camping orders are also impossible to follow. The story was written by scribes who had never had to live in deserts, let alone travel them.
    The plagues of ;Moses' were the result of the Nile drying up for several years. It happened from time to time. The Nile's waters came from 3000+ miles away in mountains in Africa. When the monsoon rains didn't arrive the Nile gradually reduced and dried up when the rains failed for successive years. Waters for Palestine came from Jordan etc to the North. Sometimes those rains would dry up and the Jordan itself would be like the Nile Fortunately Palestine had its own rains - most of the time..
    As I said earlier the stories gave them an 'origin/history' and they used known events etc to weave their characters into. Sure, cities like and Sodom and 'Gomorrah' and the cities of the plain were real, and were destroyed, aso they used them. The walls of Jericho fell down - so they used the incident. Jericho was a walled 'city'. We're given the impression in the Bible of its greatness.
    You could walk round its walls in about 20 minutes.

    It's now midnight here in the UK. I'm off to bed. Have a good day - if your across the ocean.
    .
     
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  12. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    I don't see any evidence that any of them were 'made up!' They refer to specific times, under specific rulers, and usually contain lengthy genealogies. ..nothing like a myth or legend of lore, but regular people doing something extraordinary.

    Now, people can believe whatever they want, about the biblical accounts, and who can dispute them? But as far as 'evidence', either internal or external, it all points to a literal account about literal events and persons.

    Even Job, perhaps the oldest story in the bible, portrays everything as literal.

    What is more perplexing, is why anyone would dispute (and demean) the OT persons as 'myth!' Incredulity is the only real argument, and that is pretty lame, as a criticism of some of the oldest written accounts in human history.
     
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  13. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    .Exactly. Don't you find peculiar all the actual details given. All the conversations in detail. Did the Kings take their reporters to battle with them, or to tape conversations for posterity. We even have a repeat of the 'Lot and Sodom' story.
    After the death of almost every leader the Hebrews turn away from Jahweh. So then we have another story of how Jahweh forgives and helps them - again. . Army figures are exaggerated and it's hardly likely any Sisera had 900 Iron Chariots. In the hilly country concerned chariots would have been useless. As it happens the story says that Jahweh helped the Israelites. Actually, so-called Sisera made a mistake and took heavy iron chariots onto marshy ground near the mountain. Chariots in Palestine were only useful on the flat plains - used by the Philistines against Saul. The Israelites only escaped by taking to the hills where Philistine chariots were useless. Even then Saul and his sons were captured - well Sauls body was found.

    Jephthah tells the Ammonite King 'Israel has been living here for 300 years, inhabiting Hashbon...... (11:26). . Clearly they haven't - BUT have they?

    300 years before the Egyptians refer to 'Israel' in Canaan. Is this the Israel Jephthah talks about? That would eliminate the Exodus.
    The whole stories PERHAPS are taken from the uproar in Palestine when the Canaanites rebelled - as with the Armana letters.

    Writers in the Bible are not always reliable with the truth. The writers of Matthew and Luke clearly misuse OT scriptures in their nativity stories to declare Jesus Divinity through his birth. On the other hand Paul says his resurrection is proof of his divinity. (Romans 1) So, if either, who is right? Or was Jesus, as I believe, just a very powerful Jewish preacher - like one today's genuine evangelists
     
  14. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Here is what happens, with the 'Bible is full of errors!' crowd:

    1. An alternate, plausible SPECULATION of an 'error!' is suggested.. with no archaeological, textual, or historical evidence.
    2. This speculation is ASSERTED to be fact, with no evidence.
    3. the conclusion, 'The bible is full of errors!' is erroneously declared as 'fact!', ALL WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE.

    Here are the empirical facts:

    1. There are NO PROVEN ERRORS, in the biblical manuscripts. Any alleged errors sre assumed, speculated, or inferred, with no hard evidence, just plausible theories that 'this could be an error!'
    2. There are thousands of years of biblical scholarship, textual criticism, and close scrutiny from dedicated biblical scholars, who provide a timeline and record of translation, commentary, and accuracy of conveyance.
    3. Johnny-come-lately critics, millennia removed from the manuscript's actual writing, have WAY LESS CREDIBILITY, than scores of careful, attentive, and studious acholars, intent on conveying an accurate account.
    4. Anti-Christian bigots, with an agenda of smearing, demeaning, and belittling the biblical texts to promote their own religious beliefs, have no credibility, when it comes to textual criticism.
    5. Variances in manuscripts, numbering in the thousands, are not indications of 'error!'

    Any time i have demanded evidence, for some dubious claim of 'error!', in any biblical text, there are only plausible speculations, interpretations, and assertions given.. no facts. No evidence, either historical, archeological, or textual, and only dogmatic insistence, of, 'Is too! The bible is full of errors!', repeated like a propaganda meme.

    My only conclusion is that the purveyors of these lies are indoctrinated dupes, blinded by their own bigotry and hate of Christianity, so that they eagerly swallow the lies, indifferent to the truth.. OR, they knowingly and actively disseminate the lies, for their anti-christian agenda. The proselytize their own religious beliefs by smearing and slandering Christianity.

    Either way, lies are lies, and should be exposed and warned against.
     
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  15. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    @trevorw2539

    I regret I cannot reply to you because of my own reading difficulties
    and the complexities of your uploads.
    If you might perhaps break them up into "thought" uploads rather than thesis style.

    Sometimes, long uploads carry so many points of discussion leading to their conclusion
    it is too hard to know where to start.


    Thank you.



    PS. Yes, there was a Deborah, Barak, Sisera and Jael too.
    Ruth may have been invented to give the House of David that slightly "tainted" blood line
    as is common in myth.
    But, hey - that's just Moi
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
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  16. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Possibilities, regarding the biblical accounts:
    1. They are all literally true, as written.
    2. There are some true, and some lies or exaggerations.
    3. All are lies and imaginations.

    All the historical, archaeological, and internal evidence points to #1, as the intent of the authors.

    It is only incredulity, disbelief, or hostility toward the bible that asserts otherwise. People can believe whatever they want, about the scriptures, and they do. But there is no evidence for the lame charge, 'The bible is full of errors!' That is an unevidenced belief, based mostly on hostility toward Christianity.
     
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  17. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Read The Age of Reason by Founding Father Thomas Paine:




    http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/



    Analysis and commentary:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Reason
     
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  18. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Right.
    Nearly 1800 years removed from the events, on another continent, from a hostile, anti-christian bigot, and there is supposed to be credibility, there?
    :roll:

    ..anti-christian biblical scholarship, defined. Throw plausible accusations, hoping something will stick...
     
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  19. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you understand Joseph Campbell and the common
    cross cultural theme a hero has some "tainted" blood.
    And how that might serve the House of David.
    NOT THAT YOU AGREE
    but you understand the seeming advantage to the hero to
    not be "pure blood" of their tribe.

    I agree no archeology disputes the histories expressed in the Old Testament.


    Certainly numbers mentioned in armies and such may be exaggerated.
    But, not that some battle took place.
    There was probably an oral tradition to these histories as the oldest
    manuscripts are so many generations later. And oral traditions might
    embellish a little :rolleyes: over generations compared to a written account.

    So if they say there was an army with 500 ? ? ?
    I do not dispute there was an army but, might ponder the 500 ? ? ?
     
  20. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    In all this time biblical apologists have had ample time to try to refute his analysis. They have not done so because they know he wrote the truth.

    This is similar to what we see on a daily basis on this forum - right wingers cannot refute the truth so they resort to attack after attack. Such tactics are nothing more than a concession they have lost.
     
  21. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Yes, they MAY be, or may NOT be, exaggerated. We have no evidence either way. So a BELIEF about 'errors!', is just an unevidenced belief.
     
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  22. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    His 'analysis' (being very generous, here) was never valid from the beginning.. just a bunch of false accusations, assumptions, and speculations redefined as 'fact!' for propaganda purposes, then spewed out like vomit. And deluded, anti-christian bigots lap it up with glee...

    :roflol:

    Attack! Attack!

    :roflol:
     
  23. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    And where are your "proofs" of these baseless assertions?
     
  24. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry. II;ll ;try a different way.
     
  25. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I've posted proven facts but they are rejected out of hand. He doesn't want his comfort zone disturbed or bother to study outside what he has been taught.
     
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