Any non-Abrahamic religions here?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Greenleft, Mar 17, 2019.

  1. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,482
    Likes Received:
    417
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    I know there are many atheists, agnostics and free thinkers in this forum.

    I've had debates with more than enough Christians. There were at least two Muslims I've seen on this forum. So today we are moving away from Jesus, Abraham, Moses, the Qur'an and the Bible.

    Today, I want to discuss something different. Are there any believers of the Eastern persuasion? Those religions include: Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Daoists and Confucians. Are there any pagans? Any Zoroastrians?

    I started a thread on Sikhs months back, but I want to expand on that because I have questions about the beliefs of the Eastern religions.

    To Buddhists:

    Is Buddhism a religion or a life philosophy?

    What is God to Buddhists? When asked if Buddhists believe in God, they will not answer the question directly and shift from God being a creator and personality to a philosophy concept.

    To Hindus:

    If cows are avatars of God, does my karma go from bad to worse every time I eat beef? I've never actually noticed.

    Granted you believe in only one God, but since God expresses himself in multiple (maybe even millions) of forms, how do you worship? Do you literally have to go to one temple/shrine to pray for a good harvest at the farm and then go to another temple/shrine to pray for a successful love life?

    Hindus don't believe in converting. If Hindus are born into a hierarchical caste system, what does that make people born outside of it? What is Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva's plan for Christians? What about people who overcome their caste (rags to riches success stories)?

    To Sikhs:

    You believe in one God which is described as formless and infinite, but in your holy book the Guru Granth Sahib, there are references to Hindu deities. Are these dieties lesser gods that submit to one all powerful God? Clarification would be nice.

    Does growing your hair REALLY help in achieving Nirvana?

    And to all of them (Eastern religions):

    Is there evidence of reincarnation?

    How does an insect gather good karma to be reincarnated as a bird?

    Some (not all) believe women are of lesser value just for being born women. They say women gathered bad karma in their past life resulting in being born with the wrong genitals. They must therefore first be reborn into a man before achieving Nirvana. Seriously?

    ----

    If any pagans and Zoroastrians also want to discuss their beliefs, please do so because I am very curious.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  2. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,482
    Likes Received:
    417
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    I have another question for Hindus: Is there a singular and most important holy book? All the sources I'm reading say you have an inexhaustible list of scriptures. I'm guessing it's the Vedas but are there any English translations with all four volumes in a single book?

    Buddhists have the Tripitaka, but according to Wikipedia, different sects of Buddhism have different scriptures.
     
  3. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    8,898
    Likes Received:
    2,751
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The only non-Abrahamic religions represented here at PF are the various denominations of misanthropy. They are distinct from the Abrahamic religions in that they stand in direct opposition to human beings multiplying, filling the Earth and subduing it. Their primary environmental goal, for example, is to minimize human impact of the environment, whereas the Abrahamic religions' environmental goal is to maximize human well being. Most non-Abrahamic religions regard human beings as an invasive species, or a cancer. They believe that the conduct of nature is in response to the conduct of man. They all grossly inflate human significance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  4. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,482
    Likes Received:
    417
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    I know some families in India reject baby girls, but other than that, what does all this have to do with karma and reincarnation and Nirvana?
     
  5. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    56,117
    Likes Received:
    30,612
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm a "lapsed" Buddhist. I still go to services and meditate, but I don't accept all of it anymore. I can answer some of the questions, though.

    Is Buddhism a religion or a life philosophy?

    I refer to it as a religion, mostly because of the ritual and organization of it all. To me, that makes it go beyond a life philosophy, although there are "humanistic Buddhists" who just practice it as a life philosophy and cut out the more religious aspects. I guess that's the best way to describe me at this point.

    What is God to Buddhists? When asked if Buddhists believe in God, they will not answer the question directly and shift from God being a creator and personality to a philosophy concept.

    Most of the Buddhists I've met have been atheists, though some compare various Buddhist concepts to God. There really isn't a universal answer for all Buddhists on this one. Belief or nonbelief in God is relatively unimportant to the teachings of Buddhism.
     
    Greatest I am likes this.
  6. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,482
    Likes Received:
    417
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, to those Buddhists that DO believe in God, I know it's not relevant to the religion, but what would most of their answers be to describing God's nature and personality? What would the Thai monk with the shaved head in the saffron robe say?
     
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,608
    Likes Received:
    11,192
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I can answer your questions.
    It's both.
    I suppose it's fair to say that it's more of a philosophy and less of a religion than other religions, but it's still a religion.
    Isn't religion about personal values? Or does it come down to mysticism and belief in the supernatural?

    There are different types of Buddhism, with some (particularly Western-taught) focusing only on the philosophy, but there was originally some mysticism too. The original Buddhism presumed a Hindu tradition worldview, with reincarnation and karma.

    Toostate again, the are different types of Buddhism. Mainstream Buddhists do not really believe in a god or gods, or at least they are not the focus. Rather than God, there is the Buddha. Different types of Buddhism have different views on this, some of which are not mutually exclusive but just view things in a different way.
    I would draw a distinction between purely philosophical Buddhism and traditional Buddhism. The very original Buddhism did not so much deny a god or gods altogether, but did not put any emphasis on it and dismissed it. Rather the belief there was an inherent universal law known as karma. (Do bad stuff and bad stuff will happen to you, either in this life or the next)
    In some sense Buddhism is metaphysical in that there is a metaphysical connection between the philosophy and the mysticism (belief in reincarnation). They both reinforce each other.

    Yes, most Hindus would believe you would accumulate negative karma.

    Hinduism has a very fluid form of belief in gods. Various gods have different incarnations. Some Hindu sects believe all gods are an incarnation of one god, but that's usually believed to be a very impersonal god, more like a force in the universe. Most Hindus will worship a certain incarnation of a god.

    It's not so different from Catholics, who might make prayers for intercession to a particular patron saint for a certain thing.

    The Hindu caste system does not have a good way of classifying outsiders, in fact foreigners are usually regarded as their own special caste, which is one step above the lowest caste. There are all sorts of different interpretations of caste, some believe that caste obviously manifests, so if you're rich and have noble manners and religious conduct, then it is evident that you are a higher caste (i.e. you must have had good karma).
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,608
    Likes Received:
    11,192
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I suppose it's theoretically possible for a Buddhist to believe in God, however the majority of monks have a very impersonal concept of "god". It's more like a supernatural force, a metaphysical state of mind which is not distinct from physical reality. There may be prayers, but they are usually directed to one of the buddhas rather than God the creator.

    Probably verbs you're looking for are "empty", "serene", "nothingness and fullness", "peace", "benevolence", "right mind".
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,608
    Likes Received:
    11,192
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's different for different Hindus. Most of them believe in all the books but a certain group will place more emphasis and importance on one holy book.
     
  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,608
    Likes Received:
    11,192
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's very difficult to say, but some of them would tell you yes.
    It's like asking whether there is evidence of miracles going on today, some will say yes, others will be hesitant about that answer, even if they believe those miracles happen.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,608
    Likes Received:
    11,192
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There are English translations. Many of them were never translated into English, except perhaps in India (and even then not all of them have been translated). If that's something you are really interested in you might visit a Hari Krishna temple. Their religion has translated several Hindu texts into English that had never been translated into English before. They may have a small library (and certainly books that they'll want to sell you).
    I've seen a few of the texts and they are at least as long as an encyclopedia set. They will take up more than one shelf on a book case.
    A large public library may have a translation of the Bagghava Gita (will be meaningless to you without an explanation and side commentary) and the Uppanashads (more a philosophical work).
    All the important Hindu texts are definitely not fitting into a single book.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,608
    Likes Received:
    11,192
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There are ways.

    Some believe the soul might just be punished for a certain time period as a lower animal and then have a chance to return to a human.
    Someone who was obsessed with eating, for example, might spend one or two lifetimes as a pig.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,608
    Likes Received:
    11,192
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is the traditionalist belief in Hindu religion.

    The woman doesn't necessarily have to reincarnate as a man first to reach a higher level, however.
    But it is believed it is a little more difficult for a woman to achieve it.

    Women in Hindu stories can be just as pious as the men.

    Anyway, regardless of what you believe about this, it's not a critical tenant of Hindu belief. Doesn't really make much difference, and you don't have to hold any belief about it to be Hindu.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  14. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2013
    Messages:
    6,353
    Likes Received:
    695
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Hi O.P

    Gnostic Christianity is basically an eastern mystic ideology that uses the Christian bible and Jesus as it's source of guidance.

    I am not sure if you see us that way but if you see us as Christian, even though they used inquisitions on us for naming Yahweh a vile demiurge, you may disqualify me as a potential chat mate.

    If not, I am here to be questioned.

    Regards
    DL
     
  15. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    3,096
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is a bunch of buddhic branchs, which one ? Thibetan ?
     
  16. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,482
    Likes Received:
    417
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, all I can say is this: If there is any overlap with your beliefs and the religions that have their roots in East Asia and the Indian Sub Continent rather than the Middle East, and some of my questions can be answered by somebody of your persuasion, be my guest and answer them.

    Unrelated to your post but just crossing my mind:

    A Hindu colleague of mine once told me that God expresses himself differently to different people. And because of that Hindus believe other religions have truth within them as well. He then told me that unlike Muslims and Christians, Hindus will literally pray in houses of worship of other religions when they are invited to visit. If a Hindu were to enter a church he/she would pray.
     
  17. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2013
    Messages:
    6,353
    Likes Received:
    695
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I have heard of no mosque or temple turning anyone away but have heard of churches that did.

    As an esoteric ecumenist and perpetual seeker of god, god as defined as the best rules and laws to live by, I agree with your Hindu friend who agrees with my Buddhist step daughter. I was quite welcomed in her temple, even as I am white and they were mostly brown.

    That is class as compared to some white Christian churches frowning on blacks or gays entering their churches.

    Regards
    DL
     
  18. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2015
    Messages:
    4,216
    Likes Received:
    724
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Personally I lean toward Druidism.
     
  19. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    28,370
    Likes Received:
    9,297
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Buddhism has the most in common with my beliefs and is primarily a philisophical path. There is no God and all of them described are manmade creations just as is my beliefs.
     
  20. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2013
    Messages:
    6,353
    Likes Received:
    695
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ditto

    Regards
    DL
     
    tecoyah likes this.
  21. Capn Awesome

    Capn Awesome Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2019
    Messages:
    776
    Likes Received:
    428
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Buddhism is definitely a religion. Is there a philosophy that has temples, golden statues, prayers, a heirachy, supernatural beliefs, etc.
     
  22. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2013
    Messages:
    6,353
    Likes Received:
    695
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I see all thinking systems, both political and religious as ideologies. From that POV, I see all philosophies and theologies as religions and yes, they all have idols and icons to promote their ideologies.

    You may have heard of stateism as a religious concept.

    Regards
    DL
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  23. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    56,117
    Likes Received:
    30,612
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Zen, but the things I said here apply to Buddhism in general.
     
  24. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,163
    Likes Received:
    3,096
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That doesn't apply to all form of buddhism especially buddhism that spread to the west which are sometimes qualified of "neo-buddhism".

    I was in zen aswell for a few years, soto zen. I moved away for some reasons I would keep personnal, but I have great memories of Zen, and I own them a lot.
     
    yardmeat likes this.
  25. Capn Awesome

    Capn Awesome Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2019
    Messages:
    776
    Likes Received:
    428
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    If you are going to break a religion down that way, you could say the same about any religion. Considering how western Buddhists love the Dahli Lama, and are also a tiny minority of the total Buddhist population, it's pretty irrelevant.
     

Share This Page