The Bible II

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Moi621, Feb 26, 2019.

  1. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    A 'some, therefore all' fallacy is lurking in there, so careful reasoning is needed.

    For any individual 'experience', there are many possibilities:
    1. It is a delusion
    2. It is a deliberate deception
    3. It is real, but misconstrued
    4. It is real, as perceived

    IF.. a spiritual dimension is real, and humans are able, at times, to interact with it,
    THEN.. any of the above possibilities could apply.

    BUT.. in a godless universe, ONLY the first 2 are possible. Any 'experiences!' could only be delusions or deceptions.

    But how does one apply their own subjective experience, and project it upon everyone else? Just because an attempt was made, or some self deluding processes were used, does not mean that ALL such experieces are self deluding processes. Perhaps something was overlooked. Perhaps the Reality of God cannot be reduced to a parlor trick. Perhaps 'spiritual reality' is not a formulaic exercise.

    There are many possibilities WHY your 'experiment' with spiritual reality yielded unsuccessful results. 'Its all a delusion!', is not the only possibility. You put too much significance in the failure of this one 'experiment', and cannot conclude 'delusion!' as the only logical explanation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  2. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So the bible is wrong. Thank you. Matthew says Joseph went to Egypt and stayed there until, Herod was dead. Luke says Joseph went home to Nazareth after Mary's purification - about 40 days - and that he stayed there for many years growing up - visiting the Temple at Jewish Festival times. No mention of Egypt. It is compelled by as much evidence as any of your quotations from the Bible. As much as the 'evidence' for the Resurrection of Jesus. And the first hint of the Resurrection comes from St Paul. The Gospels and the Acts being written after Paul's letters and possibly his death.

    If we are to believe the Bible to be true then why did Jesus not fulfil the whole of the prophesy in Hosea 11 which is supposed to send him to Egypt. You cannot take things out of context without destroying the whole prophesy.. Either Matthew deliberately misinterprets the prophecy or Jesus committed the idolatry described.

    Here's aniother situation. You are sitting quietly at home in Jericho. You have not been at enmity with anyone. Suddenly a tribe appears at your walls. Nowhere does it say that they ever spoke to the inhabitants. At Gods command they simply destroyed the city and slaughtered everyone in it. Men, women, children. All except Rahab and her family. This isn't the first atrocity - even by todays standards - they have committed.
    This is the god you serve? None of these people deserved to be killed. And then you claim, without any proof, that Jesus was the son of the god of the OT.

    Thankfully it's just a story. But you seem to accept. it because it's in the Bible. But this is the god you portray.. You really don't know how unappealing you make your god sound. .

    My granddaughter works in an old peoples home and enjoys her work of looking after and spending what time she can helping them. There is a school for children with learning difficulties just behind my bungalow, The staff who work their spend their working lives - and sometimes more - looking after these, mainly children. They give them love and care. There are people who give up their own lives to give help and support to many types of people. They're not Christians. So they go to hell?

    The threat of hell saw the church through many centuries. In some countries there was a compulsion on villagers to attend church on Sunday. The lord/squire of the village was expected to attend and so were his 'subjects'.
     
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  3. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    No, you are wrong, and your propaganda streams, phony narratives, and false accusations will be forgotten, while the bible continues teaching, inspiring, comforting, and correcting humanity as it has for millennia.

    Repeating the same tired accusations, that have no basis in fact, history, archaeology, or reason is not 'proof of error!' It is a prejudicial opinion from a hostile competitor of religious chicanery. Your anti-christian hate streams will not fool anyone, and only expose your agenda.

    "The existence of the BIBLE, as a book for the people, is the greatest benefit which the human race has ever experienced. Every attempt to belittle it is a crime against humanity" ~Immanuel Kant
     
  4. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    That's fine, because it mostly exposes those people for what they are.
     
  5. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    I was once among those indicated by #4. But now consider those 4 possibilities in the context of witches. The bible mentions people who conjure evil spirits. In early America people saw things they called "evil" happening, and following the bible, they identified people who seemed to fit the charge of being witches, and the people tortured and killed them. That experience conformed to all 4 possibilities. And there were people at that time who fell into each of your 4 possibilities. Some saw through the zealotry of witch hunts but usually were too afraid to speak out. Some thought it was a deliberate deception that had been perpetrated by the "witches". Some felt the witch hunters were seeing real influences but misunderstood what was really happening. And some believed witches were real enough to kill people for it. (There are many, many other examples of the 4 points becoming 2 due to knowledge.)

    Today, most of us know witches don't exist due to advances in knowledge, particularly in the domain of science. And the same thing applies here.

    That has always been the role of science: it eliminates the uncertainty of "subjective experiences". We still have fools who believe in witches, but they know better than to come out of their closet to confront science.

    When the same external influences (in this case electrodes) are applied to 100 people and all describe the experience in the same way with the same characteristics, and yet the "cause" (which was obvious and controlled) is believed to be "amazing science" by some, and the magic of "God" by others, the science can be safely believed. It is the only answer for which there is real, repeatable, solid, and provable evidence. You just happen, it seems, to fall into the second category.

    WHOA WHOA WHOA!!! I had VERY "successful" results and believed I had been face-to-face with God for years afterward. My "experiment" consisted of emptying my mind of all doubt, distractions, and other thought while focusing intensely on "the glory of God" with very intense devotion, surrender, and love. So it followed all the guidelines of not only Christianity, but every major religion. And I didn't go into it with an attitude of it being an experiment. To me it was devotion, surrender, and love. Period.

    None of that is valid for reasons I've given. You thought I went into the original experience as an "experiment" but you were wrong about that. You thought that I very soon after it was over I discarded it, which I didn't. You were wrong about that, too. Your error is in judging the experience of another in your own terms when it doesn't conform to your wishes.
     
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  6. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And you keep repeating the same old refrain.

    Thank you. All you done is denied what the Bible says. The truth is that what the Bible says has little basis in fact. No-one saw the birth of Jesus No-one can actually say that Jesus was born in Bethlehem Ephratah. No archaeology for that particular time or place. Given the length of life for that period I doubt many people alive in 5BCE would have been alive when the first Gospel was written. We have no basis in fact for any of the Nativity story as in the Bible. We have no actual fact of the birth of a baby boy named Jesus. All we have are writings. And you have just indicated that we can't trust those by denying what the Bible says.

    Continue with your refutation of my posts. It doesn't make them any the less true for those who care to study.
     
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  7. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    I know a certain somebody here HATES Youtube videos, but I'm going to keep posting them because they bring the point across in a much more articulate and entertaining manner than my keystrokes ever could.

    One Youtube atheist came up with some very interesting math regarding Solomon's Temple. I suppose the apologist will explain that the supernatural produced the gold and silver, but that does not account for the issues with the number of slaves and the time to build the temple.

    The last video about Judas was a little under 7 minutes long and get's to the point relatively quickly. This video is just under 5 minutes long and also get's to the point fairly quickly (I say this so Christians here with a short attention span will not be discouraged from watching):

     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
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  8. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    There was no one named Jesus until the year 1631 A.D. so of course no one saw a baby boy named Jesus in 5BCE.
     
  9. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    For goodness sake. Let's use the name Yeshua. The Hebrew name. We all know about the letter J.
     
  10. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    That was not a list of people, or even beliefs, but possibilities. My point seemed to be missed.
     
  11. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    This is the same 'reasoning' you use. Seize some obscure numbering 'problem', which is mostly a translational or anglocentric interpretation, refute the strawman, then declare, 'error!!' over and over until the thread is trashed with bombardments of propaganda.
     
  12. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    These are all absurd lies, to promote a phony narrative. The historicity of Jesus is beyond question. There is more credible evidence for Him than most ancient figures. Evem Pontius Pilate had little evidence until recently (1960s), except for the biblical texts. Archaeology corroborates the NT accounts, and they stand as The most compelling evidence for the persons and events described.

    Your anti-christian bigotry is just a rival religious agenda, smearing the opposition for your own religious opinions. But history, archaeology, and the facts do not support your narratives, nor your hostile smears. You offer no evidence or facts, just accusations, theories, and smears.

    It is easy to dismiss you as a hostile witness, with no credibility. You won't produce any conflicting evidence, or facts, just smears, accusations, and theories that you parade around as 'fact!'

    Long, rambling, repeated propaganda streams do not constitute 'evidence!' Repeated loud lies cannot be made 'truth!'
     
  13. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    I dispute the logic of your conclusions, not your experiences. My 'wishes!' have nothing to do with it.

    You seem to conclude,
    'Since my experiences were deluded and contrived, ALL of other's are, as well!'

    This is an extrapolation of your own experiences and perceptions that cannot logically be made.

    It is a 'some, therefore all' fallacy. You cannot 'know', that because you misconstrued things, or were mistaken, that everyone is.

    It is like solving a mathematical problem.. you think it is right, but find out you were wrong. That does not mean EVERYONE was wrong, in solving the same problem. That is an irrational extrapolation, projecting your mistakes and shortcomings on everyone else. We can be wrong about things. That is human. But we can also discover Truth, after years of getting it wrong.
     
  14. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What's this all about? You're simply picking on anything I say and deriding it. . Wyrd is right. The letter J was never in the English language until the 17th century. Nor was it in the Hebrew language. Yeshua was translated Jesus when J was introduced to differentiate between various sounds etc. in the English language.

    The historicity of Jesus is beyond question.

    Then why do so many people reject it. All we have are words on paper. The rest is down to faith.

    In my mind there was a baby born and called Jesus/Yeshua. There is no credible evidence that he was divine. All we have are words in a book. No-one was present at his birth apart from his mother and 'father' The story of his birth is so contradictory and written by people who were possibly not born at the time - 5BCE.They were certainly not there in the house at his birth. The baby grew up to be a great Jewish evangelist who preached, taught, practised and lived Judaism. He preached to the Jews using Jewish scriptures, in parables that came from Jewish relationship with Jahweh. The disciples asked why he taught them in parables and he replied 'because YOU understand them' Any Gentiles around would not - not knowing the Tanakh. Most of his teaching is found in parts of the OT.Many of the actions - Baptism (John Baptised Jews that came to him. Water plays a great part in Judaism. The supposed temptation and Jewish ritual are all in Judaism in some form. The Beatitudes are simply repeats of OT teaching.
    Paul says he was divine because of his 'resurrection' - Romans. Matthew says he was divine because of the OT prophecies. Who is correct? Is either correct? It's all a matter of faith.

    Had Jesus actually said he was The Son of God he would have been rejected by the people and the excuse that he said it was used to crucify him. .Neither Matthew of Luke were at the trial before the Sanhedrin but both have detailed accounts that vary. In one Jesus is said to have admitted he was the Son of God. In the other he simply says 'you say it'.
    Jewish belief was founded on the Shema Y'Israel

    She-ma yisrael, eloheinu, adonai echad - Hear O’ Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.

    God had no son. He may quite rightly have said he was A son of God. All Jews believed they were God's sons. The Tanakh taught them that. .

    There is more credible evidence for Him than most ancient figures

    Not really. Most of this 'credible evidence' relies on the gospel writers. Those references in the 2/3 centuries all rely on those writings. They rely on Matthews twisted story of the 'divine' birth. All the Christian faith rests on that. That's why you dare not accept or explain Matthews use of Hosea 11v1 and not the rest of the prophesy. Why Matthew should place Jesus in Bethlehem Ephratah when his home was in Nazareth where his property and business was. But Luke places him in Nazareth and sends him to Bethlehem for some silly reason that makes no sense, as I've already posted.

    Now stand by for another storm of abuse - but no explanations.
     
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  15. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    usfan: trevorw and I had this conversation in the previous Bible thread. I want to ask you directly: Do believe in the historicity of the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan as described in the Bible (Exodus-Joshua)?

    I promise no Youtube video this time. According to my research online Bible believing Christians put the date of the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan any time between 1500 BCE to 1200 BCE. I'm being very generous with the timeline here.

    And yet other sources I'm getting my information from say that for most of that period Canaan was a part of the Kingdom of Egypt. That means that Joshua and the Israelites did not conquer dozens of micro-nations as described in the Bible but instead took the land from Egypt. OR during the period of the Judges, Egypt conquered Canaan AFTER the 12 tribes of Israel settled in the land. Which one is it and why does the Bible omit this very important bit of information?

    Or do you deny the historians making this claim and stick to the Bible's version of events because it's the "word of God"?
     
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  16. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    I knew that.
     
  17. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    You've avoided mentioning that what I also discussed as my evidence was "scientific" experimentation. I never asked or expected anyone to simply believe my conclusions. In fact, I never presented ANY logic or conclusions. That is why I presented the science. All I presented was fact.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  18. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Have you read the Armana letters? They show that Palestine under the Egyptians was being torn apart by local tribes and possibly help from Hittite mercenaries. They show Egyptian rulers min Palestine pleading for help from Pharaoh to put down the rebellion. Cities were falling to the indigenous peoples. There didn't need to be any supposed, and unproven, invasion.
     
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  19. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    ..maybe later. I'm starting to get my posts deleted, for daring to contradict the progressive narratives.

    It's tough enough standing almost alone against the ever growing anti-christian hordes, without having to face mods, manipilated by posters who only want to censor opposing views.. get their enemies banned..

    First evolution, then American history, now philosophy.. I'm sure the bible and Christianity are next.

    You won't get the free perspective from an Intellectual student of history, Christianity, and philosophy, but censorship seems to be more important.. gotta keep those narratives running!

    I'll take a break.. for a while.. let the narratives go back to their proper place in the Indoctrination of the culture.
    :truce:

    ..i should just forget the whole thing, and let the lies and narratives flow unrestricted... :no:
     
  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nope.... she did him a favour because if she had allowed him to live longer his Life Review would have been even far, far, far, far worse!

    The Life Review and the Near-Death Experience


    https://www.near-death.com/experiences/exceptional/christian-andreason.html#a14
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  21. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So are you preparing to celebrate the Passover Plot?
    Sunday, April 21, '19 by Western standards :worship:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passover_Plot


    :)

    Did I just lose my visit from the Easter Bunny :eekeyes:
     
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  22. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trevor spends a lot of time attacking what he doesn't believe in.. it seems. I find that strange.
     
  23. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wish we all just consider the Bible and interpretations, different translations,
    its' place in history at the times of its' times. Not what people did centuries later in the name of the Bible.

    No Faith required.


    :peace:


    BTW is it the same Trevor as I just replied above.
    Or a different Trevor?
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  24. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Passover Plot in this book by a near death experiencer is kind of astonishing.......

    [​IMG]

    http://www.thomastwin.com/6 A Thomas background.html
    http://www.thomastwin.com/7 A Thomas samples.html
     
  25. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    There is a story in the Bible in which Yeshua (Jesus) says that if you as an individual want to have eternal life you must drink his blood and eat his actual flesh.

    So if you are a believer in the Jesus character and you want eternal life would you kill him, drain his blood, and eat his entire corpse? You don't have to eat his hair or bones or nails but you have to eat the bone marrow and everything else, including guts, brains, lungs, stomach. At what stage of his life would you do that? When he is a baby or when he is an adult? Would you bother to cook him or just eat him raw?

    If you say that you wouldn't do that then why do you even believe in Jesus? Aren't you hungry and thirsty?
     
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