American Wages, the Minimum Wage and Income Brackets

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by Kari Sims, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Inequality is reality.
     
  2. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    it cannot be an externality to socialism, only to capitalism.

    We really don't have enough social morals for free to go around, for anarcho-Communism.
     
  3. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    under nature of capitalism, not under the nurture of socialism.
     
  4. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    We debate right here - online. It works well.
     
  5. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    "Government" is not a synonym for "Socialism".
     
  6. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    Capitalism has even less claim to Government. Why do you believe socialism is not Government?
     
  7. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Inequality is the nature of reality. Socialism does not suspend reality.
     
  8. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Again, "Government is Socialism" is false definition of government. Do you deny this?
     
  9. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    I cannot affirm your claim. Government must be socialism since it cannot be capitalism.
     
  10. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    On the contrary, it DOES NOT WORK WELL HERE.

    What we have here are an exchange of PoVs (opinions) as on a Message Board.

    Debate (from Wikipedia):
    We are not even close to the above. The above is coordinated, here it's a free-for-all. Because there is no Debate Moderator and no distinction regarding the "two sides" of the debate.

    But "here" is better than nothing, which is what exists as regards political debate today.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
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  11. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Government is a matter of decision making according to a set of rules (laws) passed by legislatures, themselves freely elected in a popular-vote of the people.

    Socialism is a belief that no longer exists on earth. It has long since been replaced by Social Democracy. There is a staggering difference between the two:
    *Socialism prescribed that all the means of production (of goods/services) should be owned by and distributed by the state.
    *A Social Democracy consists of a market-economy where the means of production are privately owned. It's definition from WikiPedia:
    What have we in the US? Certainly not a Social Democracy. It is a purely capitalist system where there are some basic social-protections but by no means of the same quality and consistency of a Social Democracy (where they are prevalent in political considerations).
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
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  12. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    And so the question is: how can we pay for an above-poverty minimum wage, while also eliminating involuntary under-employment?

    https://www.themacrotourist.com/posts/2019/01/23/mmt/

    It's a great read, including Prof. Stephanie Kelton's lecture on MMT at Brook State University entitled: "But how will we pay for it".

    Enjoy.
     
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  13. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    There are rules here, so PF is not a "free-for-all". It is more like an ongoing American town hall meeting - they can get rowdy. American government evolved from discussions/debates like these. Ideology make consensus more difficult now.

    debate
    [dih-beyt]
    ||
    SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR debate ON THESAURUS.COM
    noun
    a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints:a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
    a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.
    verb (used without object), de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing.
    to engage in argument or discussion, as in a legislative or public assembly:When we left, the men were still debating.
    to participate in a formal debate.
    verb (used with object), de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing.
    to argue or discuss (a question, issue, or the like), as in a legislative or public assembly:They debated the matter of free will.
    to dispute or disagree about:The homeowners debated the value of a road on the island.
    dictionary.com
     
  14. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Aspects of socialism are the hallmark of all Big Governments.

    10 "Definition of socialism

    "There are other synonyms for "socialist system" in the literature on the subject as well, for example, "Soviet-type system," "centrally administered economy," "centrally planned economy," "command economy," "and "state socialism." Janos Kornai, "The Socialist System," Princeton University Press, Princeton NJ 1992, p.10.
     
  15. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Interested in debating MMT - which deals with the OP in a way that avoids the usual Left/Right adversarial dysfunction), using this highly readable resource?

    https://www.themacrotourist.com/posts/2019/01/23/mmt/

    It includes Prof. Stephanie Kelton's lecture at Stony Brook University entitled "But how will we pay for it?"
     
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  16. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    And just in case you did not see my post

    https://www.themacrotourist.com/posts/2019/01/23/mmt/

    A great read, offering a way around the usual 'socialist - capitalist' dysfunctional debate you are engaged in with LafayetteBis.
     
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  17. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Try this definition.

    10 "Definition of socialism

    "There are other synonyms for "socialist system" in the literature on the subject as well, for example, "Soviet-type system," "centrally administered economy," "centrally planned economy," "command economy," "and "state socialism." Janos Kornai, "The Socialist System," Princeton University Press, Princeton NJ 1992, p.10.
     
  18. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Elements of capitalism and socialism exist in government. They do not define government.

    government
    [guhv-ern-muh nt, ‐er-muh nt]
    |
    SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR government ON THESAURUS.COM
    noun
    the political direction and control exercised over the actions of the members, citizens, or inhabitantsof communities, societies, and states; direction of the affairs of a state, community, etc.; politicaladministration:Government is necessary to the existence of civilized society.
    the form or system of rule by which a state, community, etc., is governed:monarchical government; episcopal government.
    the governing body of persons in a state, community, etc.; administration.
    a branch or service of the supreme authority of a state or nation, taken as representing the whole:a dam built by the government.
    (in some parliamentary systems, as that of the United Kingdom)
    1. the particular group of persons forming the cabinet at any given time:The prime minister has formed a new government.
    2. the parliament along with the cabinet:The government has fallen.
    direction; control; management; rule:the government of one's conduct.
    dictionary.com
     
  19. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Where has socialism ever delivered equality?
     
  20. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Kari, it boils down to supply and demand.

    Let's say we increased the MW to $20/hour. And let's say two single people are sharing a studio apartment, both working at minimum wage. Now, having their wages jumped up to $20/hour, they can each afford their own apartment. What do you think is going to happen to the price of apartments? With the increased demand, the price is going to go up as high as it can go, and before long, those two are going to find that all they can afford is to share a studio. Not to mention the fact that the cost of fuel will go up, the cost of food, etc.

    There are a couple of things we can do.

    First, let's control immigration. A glut of workers holds wages down. When there is a shortage of workers, wages rise because employers must compete with each other to get them.

    Second, let's support fair trade - and I emphasize FAIR - and any measure we can pass to encourage production IN the U.S. These are better jobs, with better pay and benefits. People working for companies who are producing products make a lot more than people who are working at 7-11. The more we can encourage production in the U.S. - rather than overseas - the better.
     
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  21. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    it does every day to the extent we have equal protection of the law.
     
  22. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No comment on MMT. Let's see what happens when it is debated on a Larger Scale.

    For the moment, I see nothing but confusion in the exchange. Debt has been with mankind since money was invented.

    Mankind has never known how to truly manage it, which his why the "easy way" is simply to let it accumulate ...

    NB: Which banksters just LUV TO DO !
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  23. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What you are doing is missing the point on "socialism". It is the fact that "All the means of production are owned by a central government".

    That exists nowhere on this earth - except maybe North Korea. (And we'll see what knothead there does with that one!)

    What exists today in the EU is Social Democracy. Get on board, and see what the US could do with that notion. It is working perfectly-well here in Europe. (Or, as well as it can in a monumental economic-funk that was incited by Uncle Sam in 2008! Ten effing years ago!)
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  24. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We don't.

    We just roll it over and assume that debt-payments accumulate but are offset by T-Notes (held mostly by China) ...
     
  25. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    The question in the title of Prof. Kelton's lecture on MMT is a tongue in cheek characterisation of the question that is always asked by Conservatives, when the Left seek to raise funds (via increased taxes or income redistribution) for government social security programs: namely, "But how will we pay for it?".

    [As you know, some on the U.S. Right consider taxation to be theft(!), so we already have a problem creating a social democracy in the US.
    But apart from this, much of the EU has been burdened by ongoing effects of the GFC; and I read a German report recently describing Italy as a ticking time bomb, with its current 'populist' leaders refusing to adopt the austerity measures demanded by orthodox economists, to deal with the accumulated debt and almost zero growth in Italy].

    As an economist, you will find 'the macro tourist's' introduction and exploration of MMT a stimulating read; the author describes himself as "a markets guy".
     

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