Atheist prayers can be barred by House chaplain, appeals court says

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Bluesguy, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Given that ALL government places of work MUST be secular that women just created a HOSTILE work environment and needs to be fired. That she is an elected representative makes it even worse because she has VIOLATED her Oath of Office to uphold the Constitution.
     
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  2. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree with that decision. And it isn't accurate, government favors irreligion over religion all the damn time, including the Supreme Court in that case favoring irreligion over religion in banning the Ten Commandments. It's not even possible to not favor one or the other because they are in contention.
     
  3. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Not sure I'm buying this, in what sense are people said to have consented to the expression? It certainly seems to me that there would be atheists who would not consent to it. Or is it consent in the sense that we had the option of living without money? That seems like a weird view of how well people can live without money.
    Again, that seems like a non-obvious interpretation of the word God.
    Fundamentally, I don't think the dividing factor should be whether something is a religion or not. That being said, currently it is, and we have to take that into account.

    I wouldn't have a problem with a stipend of some sort to every creed or political organisation too. Political ideas should be presented and defeated on their merits, political power shouldn't be primarily reliant on having rich friends. Of course, there are many caveats to that, like how we draw the line between different beliefs.
     
  4. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Spoken like a true theist!
     
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  5. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    To the wind or the stars that some religious nut doesn’t come in and start shooting the place up...
     
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  6. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Emily. Don't think I've engaged you before. Welcome to the argument.

    I don't have a problem with this. I believe, even as an atheist, that Christianity (and only Christianity) is good for society. Banning Christianity from the public sphere is a dangerous trend that needs to be stopped.

    No, it's been challenged in court and the Court upheld it as a motto.

    Those are two very different things. I doubt you could get atheists or Christians to agree to that kind of formulation. I certainly wouldn't. Suppose you were told that throwing you into a volcano was "for the greater good," that by sacrificing you, the volcano wouldn't erupt and the village would be spared for another year. Would you agree to the sacrifice? There are all kinds of weasel phrases designed to make you throw away your individual rights for some imagined benefit, but "the greater good" is one of the worst.

    Nonsense. Political creeds determine how we govern and not how we worship. You can no more combine constitutionalism and socialism in the same package anymore than you could combine being a Baptist with being a Satanist. If the socialists would indeed keep their opinions to themselves and not try to impose them on others, this would be a great country. But that's not what they do. They do everything in their power to make socialism the law of the land. Constitutionalism or conservatism, on the other hand, doesn't cost anyone anything. Imposing limited government and self-reliance lets taxpayers keep their money, it doesn't force socialists to violate their beliefs. Socialists are free to believe healthcare is a "right" as long as they use their own money for it. It's only when they try to make other people pay for their "right" that it becomes oppression.

    Any socialists who don't like living in America are free to move to socialist paradises like Venezuela and North Korea. But they don't, of course, they just try to make America more like them.
     
  7. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    You're much safer at a church than you are at a bar. Just sayin'.
     
  8. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I'm not asking you whether you agree with it, I'm asking you how the two decisions relate to one another.

    The decision doesn't say anything about favouring irreligion over religion, it says "the government may not favor [...] religion over irreligion". The thing you attack for being inaccurate wasn't actually said.

    That being said, what counts as favouring is still open to interpretation. In the absence of a monument to the ten commandments, there seems to me to be no impact in any direction. Given that there are many surfaces in the life of an ordinary human which are not covered in religious sentiment, it seems to me odd to argue that the absence of a monument is a promotion of the absence of the thing a monument (or for that matter, any conceivable monument) is a monument to. You could of course argue that the act of removing it is in itself the favouring act, but that seems to me to not be any more favouring than installing the monument to begin with.
     
  9. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Tell that to all the Jews that got whacked in Pittsburgh last year..
     
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  10. Gatewood

    Gatewood Well-Known Member

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    From what our leftists consistently post that would probably be either the apparently sacred concept of government control over humanity or perhaps Barack Obama.
     
  11. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    You're probably a lot safer at a synagogue than at a church, but I don't know the statistics. And they were "whacked" by a white nationalist, not a religious nut. The religious nuts were the peaceful people who got "whacked". Care to try again?
     
  12. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not really.
     
  13. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    I think it's entirely possible for the S.C. to say that the House chaplain and the House chaplain rules are not an instance of the government favoring religion over irreligion.

    But I stand by my statement. By banning the display of the Ten Commandments on public grounds, the government (the Supreme Court) was favoring irreligion over religion. It is my contention that we have a Supreme Court imposed religion in this country, called secular humanism, and God help you (so to speak) if you violate that religion. Because the Court will come down on you and come down on you hard. Displaying the Ten Commandments? That's a violation of secularism! Prayer at a football game? That's a violation of secularism! Having a creche on the town square? That's a violation of secularism! This is not a free country anymore, it is ruled with an iron fist by the secular humanists of the Supreme Court. (Whether Kavanaugh will prove to be the tipping point that reverses that remains to be seen.)
     
  14. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nope, from what leftest posts there is no such thing as an atheist prayer. Righties "feel" things rather that talk about facts.
     
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  15. Gatewood

    Gatewood Well-Known Member

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    I dunno . . . because in the past some of our leftist posters have certainly generated the impression that they are praying either to government or to their political messiah and most of our leftists do seem to CONFESS sooner or later to being atheists. I guess that one way or another most people do have some sort of religion; and perhaps most especially atheists. Or so a great many of them convey that impression.

    Meh; but I am an agnostic, and so what do I know, eh?
     
  16. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe in the all or none approach, if Christians can't share.. they lose the right too
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
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  17. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    banning the ten commandments from the court room is not favoring Atheism, get real... it's realizing religious law has no place in the courts

    I am sure if a Muslim tried to push Sharia law in the courts you would get it, biblical law is no different
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
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  18. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I mean, it would certainly seem so. I might not agree with the reasoning (or I might, I haven't looked closely enough at it), but it does certainly seem to be possible.
    Certainly, the US Supreme Court, as well as the American constitution, and I'm sure many other instances, impose secularism on the US. To the best of my knowledge, it always has, and it has been considered a central tenet of US legal and social matters. That is probably why the legal proceeding I quoted never promised not to favour irreligion over religion.

    I don't see that the Supreme Court or any other institution has favoured Humanism in any way, although I could be wrong. Humanism (in the secular humanism sense) has more to do with stuff like human morality and worth stemming from their humanity, and I don't know of any institution which has mentioned those kinds of issues in any declarative manner, and indeed seems to be directly rejected by things like the Declaration of Independence.
     
  19. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the government shoudl not push propaganda that there is or is not a God

    I would no more support "in no god we Trust" then "in god we Trust"
     
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  20. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    The court just said atheism is NOT a religion. How does not allowing a religious monument favor atheism when no atheism monument is allowed either?
     
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  21. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    How ironic, from yesterday

    The Satanic Temple is a real religion, says IRS
    The Satanic Temple, which is featured in a documentary called “Hail Satan?,” announced this week that the IRS now recognizes it as a church.

    That recognition means the group can now get the same benefits as religious organizations — including tax exemption and protection from discrimination.
    https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/04/25/satanic-temple-is-real/

    So when they request having one of their chaplins give the innovation what then?

    Another example of why I believe matters of faith and government be kept separate.
     
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  22. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    The Chaplin is a member of one. The House is giving that respect.
     
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  23. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'll stick with the dictionary definition: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. I'm not sure what an active disbelief is, really. Do you have an active disbelief in bugs the size of houses flying over the ocean? (Or any of the infinite number of things you don't belief are real?)
     
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  24. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sure we are, a moment of prayer, a momnet of silence, a momentnof reflection.

    IRS just rule a group of Satanist is a religion. What is the difference between a Wiccan faith and Christian faith under the law?

    Really? Where am I lacking?
     
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  25. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    If the Satanists just invoked their 7 Tenets it would be an inspiration to everyone in government.

    https://thesatanictemple.com/

    If that is what Satanists believe then Hail Satan!
     

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