About Socialism

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Qohelet, Apr 17, 2019.

  1. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    39,883
    Likes Received:
    2,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Shush now, I asked for a stop of the prattle. Given you can't refer to economics, I'll go my merry way and listen to some Dead Kennedys instead as an error correction. God bless!
     
  2. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    26,311
    Likes Received:
    7,461
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    In a business that is a sole proprietorship or partnership and is not incorporated, tax law doesn't distinguish net income from personal income nor from what you are calling "profit". Right?
     
  3. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Crikey. Seen from the IRS, they want a small business to report all revenue and all costs that can be written off. As to the word profit, it does not matter to them. It is income.

    But when you sit down with your banker, he wants to see what your profit is. He gives lines of credit on that.

    My bookkeeper was not so concerned with what you call income as she was with profit. Income could be a million dollars but if you also had costs of a million dollars your profit was nothing but your income was the million dollars.

    I am struggling due to the wording of your questions
     
  4. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    16,275
    Likes Received:
    4,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Okinawa? That's gotta have more ICBMs pointed at it than anywhere else.
     
  5. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You rebuked me when i spoke about economics. As you are still rebuking me.
     
  6. fencer

    fencer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,020
    Likes Received:
    232
    Trophy Points:
    63
    But a free market doesn't leave the workers out of the benefit chain. Every time an exchange is made in a relatively free market system both participants are better off, otherwise they wouldn't do the deal. If you're smart about the kind of deals you do that will be enough to take you from poor to prosperous. You'll never overcome Pareto's Law but capitalism continues to shift the scale upward. Also, the "poor" over time aren't the same people. The "poor" are always the bottom 20 percent of wage earners but they aren't the same people.

     
  7. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    42,206
    Likes Received:
    14,119
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Save us the geriatric rambling
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Progressives are the least cooperative people. They don't like getting their hands dirty.

    Greed for fairness? Are you having a lend? How about AOC's 80% tax on 'the rich', so that those unwilling to work can have a nice cushy life, free from the burdens of responsibility - just like good lazy little capitalists?

    Dear, I AM a socialist. I'm also a Leftist and a liberal. I guarantee that the average Leftist Progressive is a flaming capitalist in every sense of the word. They simply want to spend capitalist dollars on different things than the rich want to spend them on. How on earth you think that makes them better (ESPECIALLY when they're not even prepared to work for those capitalist dollars) is anyone's guess. How you think it makes them socialists is beyond possible comprehension.
     
    Robert likes this.
  9. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,785
    Likes Received:
    2,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Anything we do collectively to improve the caliber of living generally for all society, will pay dividends toward happier citizenry & a more cooperative, supportive populace. All that is positive & would represent a notable improvement over our current state of social & political division.
     
  10. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Like so many, you conveniently fail to address the elephant in the room. WHERE DOES THAT MONEY COME FROM? That money you want to 'thoughtfully invest in caring for others'? Is it produced by socialism/communism? Or is it produced by CAPITALISM? And how is it that the First World has so damned much of it? Was it our innate socialism? Or was it our innate 'conservatism' (in matters money)?
     
    Robert likes this.
  11. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Correct. The video accurately explains it.

    When Bill Clinton was president Democrats constantly told me and others that the poor and middle class were harmed by Reagan and only the rich did better.

    I produced a quintile study that smashed that myth. It shows as your video shows how you can start out poor but even 8 years later are now much more wealthy. I noted too some of the rich lost their fortunes. So in cases, the rich are getting poorer.
     
  12. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Do an experiment. You get some of your idealistic buddies and all kick into a pot. Go down in your city to where you can locate homeless camps. Walk to each pup tent and wake the guy up. Decide first what you will pay at each pup tent. Track the pup tent dweller for a period of time. Get back us when you come to a conclusion.

    My prediction is you won't notice change.
     
    crank likes this.
  13. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Why are you so unhappy here? Time after time you vanish. Suddenly you are back and in an angry mood. Why do you vanish a lot?
     
  14. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How much cash are you willing to invest in my life to enhance my life?
     
    crank likes this.
  15. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    26,311
    Likes Received:
    7,461
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Sheesh. I asked for a factual reply, not a political complaint. I'll take it as "no, there is no accounting for profit in the case of a sole proprietorship." But I knew that. So your "5% profit" was an irrelevant invention. Thanks for playing.
     
  16. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,785
    Likes Received:
    2,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Very interesting, thoughtful, helpful post. I thank you.
    1. Yes, you are right. It is a huge task & a misguided one to try speaking for you. You do a fine job for yourself. I sincerely apologize.
    2. I envision a society that creates a permanent fund that assists individuals or families in dire economic need, to subsist at a basic, minimal level for comfort & cleanliness, and gets a place to live, food, access to basic health care & a government stipend to subsist on until they can get themselves a job & on their financial feet again. For me, it's a humanitarian thing. I would want regulations with enforcement in place to help prevent moochers from abusing the system, but we need a system. I would also support giving access to public education &/or training for those forced into changing jobs or careers due to automation or dying professions. I also think the government should be able to freeze consumer debts briefly during these episodes when individuals or families were transitioning between jobs or careers. I believe such programs would encourage & motivate our citizens to support their government & society around them to a much elevated degree.
    3. I agree that Youtube is a marvelous place to go to learn almost anything. I use it myself quite often, & for a variety of subjects. It's like having a free university at your fingertips.
    4. The Civil Rights Law of 1965 did quite a lot of good things racially for America. Before that law passed, blacks were often deprived from eating in public restaurants that served whites, or staying in motels at night where whites stayed. Many companies refused to even consider blacks for management jobs, & would hire them only for cleaning, janitorial, or lowest pay positions. Before the Civil Rights Act of 1965, blacks were forced to use separate public restrooms & water fountains. Neither could they marry into the white community. None of those abuses are legal today, because of that Civil Rights Act of 1965. So, yes, that act was a very important step toward giving blacks & other minorities the human rights they were entitled to, and I applaud it as a historic document that did much good.
    5. It is absolutely true that too many blacks & other minorities are economically challenged, and many experience periods of time dependent upon welfare. It is also true that since the Civil Rights Act of 1965, more blacks & minorities have been granted access to higher education, and we now have many times more of them in positions of higher management & the professions than at any time prior in our history. This is a story of neither total success or failure, but as in many aspects of life, qualified progress. I disagree with your overly negative conclusions on this.
    6. I agree that individuals are the ones most responsible for progress in any society--more than with any group. But on occasion, groups play an important part too.
    7. Your point #7 sound very much like commentary from my wife--whom I have the greatest respect for. I do agree with your points here, & have wrestled with the same thoughts internally on frequent occasions. Like you, I've basically given up on changing anyone's mind, but sometimes I use this forum to help clarify my own views on a topic. Sometimes it helps. I also learn from others at times--sometimes in surprising ways.
    8. I will look Jim Rohn up on Youtube. Thanks for the suggestion.
     
  17. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,785
    Likes Received:
    2,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    1. Extremists in any economic or political system can be incredibly harsh & destructive. The Nationalist-Socialist countries of the 1930s were severely harsh. The Communist nations of the 1920s - 1980s were also horrid systems. But American capitalism has brought us to the point that many corporate executives earn an average of 300 times the income of their own workers, and <2% of our richest families own & control 98% of our national wealth--a travesty--while the vast majority of American workers have had little or no increase in real income in about three decades. That's NOT the record of a successful economic system.
    2. I'm not convinced that competition regulates. The Robber Barons of the 1870s-1890s, & even into the early years of the 20th century, don't illustrate your point well. The corporate powers that caused the Great Recession of 2008, don't either. The .com companies currently striving for monopoly status while driving hundreds or thousands of small family businesses out of business, don't speak well for your point either. Honestly, I think the most successful economic systems in existence today are those of W Europe & Scandinavia, which are mixed socialist-capitalist systems.
    3. I agree with your 3rd point.
    4. Perhaps if we create a new national healthcare system in America that includes existing healthcare insurance companies plus a federal single payer system, we'll be able to test your hypothesis when we see which consumers prefer for healthcare coverage for themselves & their families.
     
  18. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,785
    Likes Received:
    2,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If we expand on the society described in your post, what kind of environment does it lead to? I submit, one similar to the one we currently have, with nearly the majority of Americans qualifying for inclusion in the economically challenged classes, living in sub-quality housing, eating cheap, unhealthy foods, stymied from access to healthcare regardless of the need, stuck in jobs that refuse to offer pay raises, struggling payday to payday to make ends meet & never able to get beyond that enough to invest in anything whatsoever. You defend the status quo, but the status quo has given us the super wealthy dictating our lives & taking all the national wealth for themselves. Between 1945 & 1969, American capitalism actually did do several things to improve the lives of the middle class. But since then, and especially since the Reagan years, the middle class has been slowly disappearing, till it's now on the endangered species list. America becomes ever lessened by that loss, and conservative capitalists won't even acknowledge the problem. The first step in solving a problem is recognizing & admitting it's there in the first place. Do you really expect the U.S. to survive for an extended period if the class disparity continues to exacerbate itself? How long?
     
  19. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    1) rice, beans, and seasonal vegetables are always cheaper than the junk food that 'poor' people eat. ergo bad food is a choice.

    2) I live in a nation with free healthcare, and we still have 'impoverished' people and homeless people. ergo their poverty is a choice.

    3) struggling payday to payday, yet somehow able to afford junk food, tattoos, iphones, beer, cigarettes, cars, big tvs, etc etc. any struggle
    is self-inflicted. cut all of those luxuries, and there will be much less struggle.

    4) see above. if you spend even a single cent on the above luxuries, you're not serious about investing.

    The First World will only expire if we continue to enable non-productivity and lack of personal responsibility. Because that is what's causing the problems we see today.
     
  20. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You just smeared me.

    50 demerits.
     
  21. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    oh MY 5 percent? I had commented that industry standards mention such a number. Nothing about it being mine.

    Parents, will you please keep your children from posting to your accounts?

    I am tired of the flamers.
     
  22. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I believe in what you are saying.

    Here, let me give you a huge boost by handing you a very good system anybody can use. And it works and people get what you want them to get.

     
  23. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Messages:
    39,883
    Likes Received:
    2,144
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Couldn't you at least add some lumpen-proletariat comment in the routine? Of course the 'it's all down to personal responsibility' fed the supply side economics movement. That led to attacks on the welfare system which merely accentuated underclass problems. Gosh, it's as if the simple rhetoric was a crock...
     
  24. ralfy

    ralfy Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2013
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The issue has nothing to do with "accountancy limitation" or "economic contribution" but efficiency! You tried to address that by referring to technology, remember?
     
  25. ralfy

    ralfy Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2013
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Sustainability? My point has nothing to do with that or even ecological economics but diminishing returns. Your counter is a shift of the production frontier and you can't even give an example of that!
     

Share This Page